Lennox Lewis v Antony Joshua

[Batman]

OK lets pit their opponents against each other in order to gain an idea of what level they both were at with their careers at the same amount of fights, is that fairer than comparing a peak Lewis with a current AJ?

21 fights in and Lennox Lewis held the Commonwealth (British Empire) Heavyweight Title, EBU (European) Heavyweight Title and the BBBofC British Heavyweight Title

21 fights in and AJ holds the IBF World Heavyweight Title, International Boxing Organization World Heavyweight Title and the WBA Super World Heavyweight Title and is fighting for the WBO World Heavyweight Title

It took Lewis just over 3 years of his professional career to reach his 21st fight, AJ will hit 21 fights after about 4 1/2 years, 4 1/2 years into Lennox's career he had just fought Frank Bruno

I can't really comment on Lennox's opponents because I would have only been around 6 years old when he was fighting this lot.

Lennox opponents on the left, AJ's on the right
Al Malcolm v Emanuele Leo
Bruce Johnson v Paul Butlin
Andrew Gerrars v Hrvoje Kisicek
Steve Garber v Dorian Darch
Melvin Epps v Hector Avila
Greg Gorrell v Matt Legg
Noel Quarless v Matt Skelton
Calvin Jones v Konstantin Airich
Michael Simuwelu v Denis Bakhtov
Jorge Dascola v Michael Sprott
Dan Mucphy v Jason Gavern
Ossie Ocasio v Raphael Zumabo Love
Mike Acey v Kevin Johnson
Jean Maurice Chanet v Gary Cornish
Gary Mason v Dillian Whyte
Mike Weaver v Charles Martin
Glenn McCrory v Dominic Breazeale
Tyrell Biggs v Eric Molina
Levi Billups v Wladimir Klitschko
Derek Williams v Carlos Takem
Mike Dixon v Joseph Parker

[Master]

Gary Mason v Dillian Whyte sounds like a good scrap, think Mason wins.

[Spicoli]

That's a solid breakdown. I give a 40 yr old Weaver a fair shake vs the Martin who faced AJ .

[Master]

AJ has a standout victory against Wlad which beats early Lennox's opponents.

WTF was Lennox even fighting Glenn McCrory?

[Spicoli]

AJ has a standout victory against Wlad which beats early Lennox's opponents.

WTF was Lennox even fighting Glenn McCrory?

Local consumption for a flimsy trinket defense.

In fairness Lewis was laughed at Stateside and dismissed as 'typical straight up guy from Europe' before Ruddock break out win. Honestly the boxing world was still very isolated as far as 'across the pond'. AJ was ushered in with multiple media platforms and had his belt gift wrapped from Martin and massive Wlad recongnition following. Lets face it the division was also thriving compared to recent times. Even after embarrassing loss to Fury.

Lewis had entered heavyweight elimination against the top 3 guys in division and was more that willing to square off with Bowe in finale, only to have Bowe wet himself and opt out. Leaving Lewis to make official statement title win vs Don King default Tony Tucker. He was forced a backward step there.

[Fenster]

Good idea Batman.

It's quite staggering how much stronger AJ's opposition is by comparison, he has a superb record for a heavyweight with so few fights.

[X]

I suspect Al Malcolm and Emanuele Leo may have both sparked out Prince Charles Martin

[X]

Good idea Batman.

It's quite staggering how much stronger AJ's opposition is by comparison, he has a superb record for a heavyweight with so few fights.

I think it depends entirely on what age you are. I remember a lot of Lewis' opponents and they were handier fighters than AJ's. That doesn't make Joshua a worse fighter ...

[sanatogen]

AJ has a standout victory against Wlad which beats early Lennox's opponents.

WTF was Lennox even fighting Glenn McCrory?

I believe he was goaded into it by Glen McCrory when they both attended a boxing evening. He must have needed the funds.

[X]

I don't know, Fenster .....

I think a decent journeyman is likely the same back then as now - experienced, will go a few rounds, knows enough to not get hurt but probably not win.

I think the fringe contenders are weaker now. A bit more hyped, not many fights or experience at all. I think it's easier to climb the ranks now than then, generally speaking.

I'd be interested to know how many rounds the currently ranked numbers 5-15 heavyweights have, compared to those in Lewis' rise, then again in Tyson's rise, then again in Ali's rise, then again in (say) Joe Loius' rise.

[Spicoli]

They actually did a good job at doing what one needed to do at the time and that for lack of a better term is Americanizing..as if 3 Countries weren't enough ..Lewis and upping his exposure. He had to lay pavement and make a road. They upped his familiarity by running the same tight circuit of journeymen fellow American 'prospects' were doing. You see it in every division in any era looking to one up with comparison. Weaver was good in that he made network tv. Shoot Biggs was fresh of feeding a young Bowe 101 jabs and running a bit even and Lewis on same card with Holyfield v Cooper was prime spot. Billups was frsh off big upset of geezer Bonecrusher Smith and Moorer fight on hbo. Dixon had soaked up tremendous bombs from Sanders and Seldon. In hindsight they really marketed him decently over here, made the needed heavyweight familiarity first. It's much different today. AJ can sit at home and promote his showcases from the latrine on a live stream and have everyone bussed in for him.

[Fenster]

My comments were specifically about the level of competition faced after 20 fights, nothing to do with which era was stronger.

I disagree that one era was superior to another, I believe journeymen, fringe contenders and "champions" time-warped into different eras would have the same/similar existence. The smaller guys would be bigger and the bigger guys leaner/slicker etc.

There's more opportunity to be called champion today, so in turn it makes long standing challengers and champions from the past look stronger and today's crop appear weaker. You offer IBF "champion" Charles Martin as a representive of this weak era yet Glenn McCrory proudly dines out on being "world" champion, he won a vacant IBF title against an 8-2 Patrick Lumumba, he was matched with Lewis specifically because he was former "world" champion.

It's easy to highlight the flaws of modern fighters as we know EVERTHING about their lives, we get to watch all their fights, it takes seconds to produce their records. Training camps, sparring partners, press conferences, weigh-ins, we see everything.

We don't have to rely on stories, opinions and biases of other men.

[Fenster]

I don't know, Fenster .....

I think a decent journeyman is likely the same back then as now - experienced, will go a few rounds, knows enough to not get hurt but probably not win.

I think the fringe contenders are weaker now. A bit more hyped, not many fights or experience at all. I think it's easier to climb the ranks now than then, generally speaking.

I'd be interested to know how many rounds the currently ranked numbers 5-15 heavyweights have, compared to those in Lewis' rise, then again in Tyson's rise, then again in Ali's rise, then again in (say) Joe Loius' rise.

My comments were specifically about the level of competition faced after 20 fights, nothing to do with which era was stronger.

I disagree that one era was superior to another, I believe journeymen, fringe contenders and "champions" time-warped into different eras would have the same/similar existence. The smaller guys would be bigger and the bigger guys leaner/slicker etc.

There's more opportunity to be called champion today, so in turn it makes long standing challengers and champions from the past look stronger and today's crop appear weaker. You offer IBF "champion" Charles Martin as a representive of this weak era yet Glenn McCrory proudly dines out on being "world" champion, he won a vacant IBF title against an 8-2 Patrick Lumumba, he was matched with Lewis specifically because he was former "world" champion.

It's easy to highlight the flaws of modern fighters as we know EVERTHING about their lives, we get to watch all their fights, it takes seconds to produce their records. Training camps, sparring partners, press conferences, weigh-ins, we see everything.

We don't have to rely on stories, opinions and biases of other men.

[Fenster]

I'd be interested to know how many rounds the currently ranked numbers 5-15 heavyweights have, compared to those in Lewis' rise, then again in Tyson's rise, then again in Ali's rise, then again in (say) Joe Loius' rise.

Going through rounds of all the contenders from different eras is a job for a supernerd (i'm just a bored semi-nerd), however, these records give some insight into the experience of fighters from yesteryear to today (obviously it can't gauge the quality of opposition).

The average number of fights between the highest first time winner (39) and lowest (16) is 27

Joe Louis was having his 33rd fight when he became world champion against Braddock 50-25-7, the overall combined win/loss record of his next 5 opponents is 299 wins/57 losses/31 draws (Total fights - 397)

Liston - 34th fight beat Patterson 38-2-0 / WLD record - 131/12/3 (146)

Ali - 20th fight beat Liston 35-1-0 / WLD record - 180/41/3 (224)

Now into the age of multi-titles (70s), the titles fractured when Spinks was stripped after beating Ali.

Frazier - 25th fight beat Eliis 27-5-0 (WBC/WBA) / WLD record - 169/9/2 (180)

Foreman - 38th fight beat Frazier 29-0-0 (WBC/WBA) / WLD record - 181/17/2 (200)

Holmes - 27th fight beat Norton 40-4-0 (WBC) / WLD record - 139/21/4 (164)

The IBF is now a factor (80s/90s)

Tyson - 28th fight beat Berbick 34-4-1 (WBC) / WLD record - 145/8/1 (154)

Lewis - 22nd fight beat Ruddock* 27-3-1 (WBC) / WLD record - 162/20/1 (183)

Holyfield - 25th fight beat Douglas 30-4-1 (WBC/WBA/IBF) / WLD record - 212/16/0 (22()

Bowe - 32nd fight beat Holyfield 28-0-0 (WBC/WBA/IBF) WLD - 126/13/2 (141)

The WBO becomes relevant (2000s)

Vitai - 25th fight beat Hide 31-1-0 (WBO) / WLD record - 179/11/3 (193)

Wlad - 35th fight beat Byrd 31-1-0 (WBO) / WLD record - 142/12/6 (160)

Wilder - 34th fight beat Stiverne 24-1-0 (WBC) / WLD - 129/11/3 (143)

Joshua - 16th fight beat Martin 23-0-1 (IBF) / WLD record - 153/10/1 (164)

Conclusion - It's easier to win a title today, as should be expected, however, from the 60s to today the disparity between the actual number of fights hasn't changed much if at all.

*title wasn't on the line but Lewis was awarded title on back of this result