Groves vs Smith for Ring Title. Agree?

[Alpha]

Ward was the last lineal champion and also The Ring champion.

Since Ward left supermiddle The Ring made DeGale-Jack for the belt but it was a draw.

With Ward/Froch, many rated the undefeated IBF champion Bute ahead of Froch at the time. Putting the legitimacy of the lineal title being on the line in question.

Froch annihated Bute later on should tell us that Bute was a paper champ.

That is besides the point, Bute was considered by many to be #1 or #2 in the division heading into Ward/Froch.

[Alpha]

If Groves has the Ring belt then he should be the others fighters have to beat to be considered the best in the division. If they do not challenge him then they are just 'also rans' and should be treated as such.

The ring belt does carry some credibility.

In my opinion championships (The Ring & Lineal) sound be earned against the best. 1 vs 2.

Otherwise we might as well just hand out titles to everyone.

[Fenster]

Ward was the last lineal champion and also The Ring champion.

Since Ward left supermiddle The Ring made DeGale-Jack for the belt but it was a draw.

With Ward/Froch, many rated the undefeated IBF champion Bute ahead of Froch at the time. Putting the legitimacy of the lineal title being on the line in question.

Froch annihated Bute later on should tell us that Bute was a paper champ.

That is besides the point, Bute was considered by many to be #1 or #2 in the division heading into Ward/Froch.

It caused tons of arguments on here as Bute had a big following claiming he was the best supermiddle. Not for me though, Ward-Froch had better form than him so was fine by me, and I believe Froch annihilating Bute was some kind of justification (as Master said).

At the very least it cemented Andre Ward's claim to be no.1 in the division.

[Alpha]

Ward was the last lineal champion and also The Ring champion.

Since Ward left supermiddle The Ring made DeGale-Jack for the belt but it was a draw.

With Ward/Froch, many rated the undefeated IBF champion Bute ahead of Froch at the time. Putting the legitimacy of the lineal title being on the line in question.

Froch annihated Bute later on should tell us that Bute was a paper champ.

That is besides the point, Bute was considered by many to be #1 or #2 in the division heading into Ward/Froch.

It caused tons of arguments on here as Bute had a big following claiming he was the best supermiddle. Not for me though, Ward-Froch had better form than him so was fine by me, and I believe Froch annihilating Bute was some kind of justification (as Master said).

At the very least it cemented Andre Ward's claim to be no.1 in the division.

Definitely established Ward as top of the division.

Froch had lost to Kessler (no shame in that), who Ward had just beaten. Bute was unbeaten until running into Froch, although he had the scare against Andrade in the first encounter. He blew him away in the rematch.

This was another example where it would have been better to leave the titles (both Ring & Lineal) vacant.

[Fenster]

Ward was the last lineal champion and also The Ring champion.

Since Ward left supermiddle The Ring made DeGale-Jack for the belt but it was a draw.

With Ward/Froch, many rated the undefeated IBF champion Bute ahead of Froch at the time. Putting the legitimacy of the lineal title being on the line in question.

Froch annihated Bute later on should tell us that Bute was a paper champ.

That is besides the point, Bute was considered by many to be #1 or #2 in the division heading into Ward/Froch.

It caused tons of arguments on here as Bute had a big following claiming he was the best supermiddle. Not for me though, Ward-Froch had better form than him so was fine by me, and I believe Froch annihilating Bute was some kind of justification (as Master said).

At the very least it cemented Andre Ward's claim to be no.1 in the division.

Definitely established Ward as top of the division.

Froch had lost to Kessler (no shame in that), who Ward had just beaten. Bute was unbeaten until running into Froch, although he had the scare against Andrade in the first encounter. He blew him away in the rematch.

This was another example where it would have been better to leave the titles (both Ring & Lineal) vacant.

Maybe leave it vacant but only because of Kessler not Bute.

I don't think cometitive losses to top-class opposition should demote fighters, and Kessler is an all-time great supermiddle. Bute's lofty ranking was down to European fighters being underrated at that time, remember, although only 10 years ago, the East-Euro/Russian invasion had yet to be accepted Stateside, guys like Bute were fighting on HBO/Showtime so naturally overhyped.

Leading up to the Ward fight this was their opposition between 2008-2010.

Bute - Miranda, Andrade, Mendy, Magee and Johnson.

Froch - Pascal, Taylor, Dirrell, Kessler (L), Abraham and Johnson.

YET!!! Bute was ranked ahead of Froch!!! That is ridiculous. Froch not only beat far better opposition he'd already knocked Magee unconcious and matched the Johnson win.

[Alpha]

Ward was the last lineal champion and also The Ring champion.

Since Ward left supermiddle The Ring made DeGale-Jack for the belt but it was a draw.

With Ward/Froch, many rated the undefeated IBF champion Bute ahead of Froch at the time. Putting the legitimacy of the lineal title being on the line in question.

Froch annihated Bute later on should tell us that Bute was a paper champ.

That is besides the point, Bute was considered by many to be #1 or #2 in the division heading into Ward/Froch.

It caused tons of arguments on here as Bute had a big following claiming he was the best supermiddle. Not for me though, Ward-Froch had better form than him so was fine by me, and I believe Froch annihilating Bute was some kind of justification (as Master said).

At the very least it cemented Andre Ward's claim to be no.1 in the division.

Definitely established Ward as top of the division.

Froch had lost to Kessler (no shame in that), who Ward had just beaten. Bute was unbeaten until running into Froch, although he had the scare against Andrade in the first encounter. He blew him away in the rematch.

This was another example where it would have been better to leave the titles (both Ring & Lineal) vacant.

Maybe leave it vacant but only because of Kessler not Bute.

I don't think cometitive losses to top-class opposition should demote fighters, and Kessler is an all-time great supermiddle. Bute's lofty ranking was down to European fighters being underrated at that time, remember, although only 10 years ago, the East-Euro/Russian invasion had yet to be accepted Stateside, guys like Bute were fighting on HBO/Showtime so naturally getting constantly overhyped.

Leading up to the Ward fight this was their opposition between 2008-2010.

Bute - Miranda, Andrade, Mendy, Magee and Johnson.

Froch - Pascal, Taylor, Dirrell, Kessler (L), Abraham and Johnson.

YET!!! Bute was ranked ahead of Froch!!! That is ridiculous. Froch not only beat far better opposition he'd already knocked Magee unconcious and matched the Johnson win.

Great Post.

Depending how a fighter loses to a higher rated guy and what others have done, I'd agree about not demoing fighters.

I think many fans put too much stock in unbeaten records, rather than opposition. Which seems the case with Bute at the time.

There was definitely a dispute about Ward/Froch being 1 & 2 tho, so it would have been better to leave the lineal title vacant.

Although the more I look into the lineal, the more holes I see in the concept. Mainly due to there being no main authority to determind the concensus rankings.

[Master]

We could re-start the debate if David Haye was truly the undisputed cruiserweight champion of the world.

[Alpha]

We could re-start the debate if David Haye was truly the undisputed cruiserweight champion of the world.

Haye was the Lineal Cruiserweight champion. Mormeck and Braithwaite were 1 & 2 when they fought to claim the vacant title (Nelson was probably 3rd at best due to inactivity and a couple of close calls).

[Fenster]

We could re-start the debate if David Haye was truly the undisputed cruiserweight champion of the world.

Haye was the Lineal Cruiserweight champion. Mormeck and Braithwaite were 1 & 2 when they fought to claim the vacant title (Nelson was probably 3rd at best due to inactivity and a couple of close calls).

Are you sure that was lineal or the Ring belt?

Mormeck-Bell unified the WBC, WBA and IBF titles (the IBF then stripped Mormeck), Haye beat Mormeck becoming THE man (lineal), then for good measure beat Enzo Macc for the WBO, he has as much right as any to claim undisputed.

[Alpha]

We could re-start the debate if David Haye was truly the undisputed cruiserweight champion of the world.

Haye was the Lineal Cruiserweight champion. Mormeck and Braithwaite were 1 & 2 when they fought to claim the vacant title (Nelson was probably 3rd at best due to inactivity and a couple of close calls).

Are you sure that was lineal or the Ring belt?

Mormeck-Bell unified the WBC, WBA and IBF titles (the IBF then stripped Mormeck), Haye beat Mormeck becoming THE man (lineal), then for good measure beat Enzo Macc for the WBO, he has as much right as any to claim undisputed.

They were the top 2 in the division, so I'd agree with lineal.