Corbyn attacker get 28 days in prison, Robinson attacked and police do nothing.

[Gandalf]

There are so many distortions here that I do not even know where to begin. When it comes to migration, I am against illegal immigration AND excessive migration. I do not think a country the size of the UK has a need for any more than a small stream of temporary labor to be hired on a yearly renewable visa. Currently 300,000 a year flood in legally. Now, I have nothing against them personally and even Legless Alan might be a nice person to joke around with, but I do not think illegal immigration should be rewarded at all.

The idea that legal migration is a boost to the economy is propaganda. I gave the numbers a page or two back and have them here in my book. The cost is tremendous. Then there is the cost of translation services, the health care system, the prison system, and of course the welfare system. It serves no greater good to encourage this. Lyle is right in that it depresses wages for those working and for those not working it raises the welfare bill by tens of billions of pounds.

There is no common sense to it. I won't
respond to Beanz posts in detail here as he seems to be running on emotion going by the things he is saying and I have no interest in a discussion like that. If those are the 'rules of debate' then they are not for me. If I see someone being racist then I will point it out. But I will also point out facts like Indians performing very well in the UK but it being illegal for foreigners to buy property in India. I will point out that foreigners have similar problems in other countries like Vietnam and Thailand too. The world does not operate like we do. Are they all racist for having limits? Or are they sensibly controlling their countries in the interests of their own population?

You can claim to care just as much about the guy from far away as the person close. However, in the real world it is not so simple. I challenge you to go around the world Beanz and find yourself treated in that way. You will always be an outsider because the system is not designed to give you the same rights and protection as a citizen. I don't think you really understand the world at large so well.

You are totally at odds with the view of ordinary people and this is why it is making people upset. It has been 20 years of non stop migration in the millions and you lie when you say this is historically normal. It isn't. Show me when in UK history 8 million people moved in regardless of culture and settled in a 20 year span. It has never happened.

[Gandalf]

I listed only 3 countries there, but I can list dozens more if asked. It is something I have of course looked into a fair bit.

[El Kabong]

I think we all get a little up in arms with our political views (I'm certainly guilty of that). And that perhaps being the case I know I have in the past read more pointed vitriol into otherwise tame posts.

We should disagree we should speak our piece we should be able to defend our points of view. We should also recognize that here at Saddo's we're not going to achieve world peace or anything like that.

Let's just try to hear each other out. Beanz has some points I wholeheartedly agree with, perhaps not to the same extent but the same vein of thought, same moral ground.

Tommy Robinson IS a controversial figure there's no argument against that. Tommy also speaks a truth that career politicians wouldn't dare touch. Tommy is also of a class which hasn't ever held much power in England. The working class are always spoken TO or FOR when was the last time they spoke for themselves at such a level? There's PLENTY of politicians with pasts as dirty as Tommy. There's been actual legit RACISTS in parliament and I don't think Tommy is racist so much as he's against 1 specific religion that being Islam of course, but even then there's members of parliament against 1 religion as well but they don't catch the grief Tommy does.

Why does Raheem Kassam not get the press Tommy does? They are on the same side of the isle yet Kassam is attacked for supporting Tommy more than espousing similar beliefs. Odd.

[Gandalf]

My own take is that it is good to help, but it is not a solution to move the world in yearly increments of 300,000 to England and it is mostly England they head to. I think there are ways and means of doing things. Even in terms of refugees, the vast majority are NOT refugees, so even then people are just trying to take advantage knowing that the UK will for instance dish out 100 billion a year in benefits or else allow you to earn a wage many times more than that of your homeland. That is an economic migrants and should not be allowed to pass as a refugee. Most migrants are economic refugees and that needs to be limited. A lot. The West, in my opinion, is too soft and millions have now taken advantage of it and they bring their own cultures and ways with them and often not many skills. So if anyone needs to be helped, we first of all do not sell arms to countries, secondly we do not invade countries, and thirdly we provide assistance to countries, but not by simply giving money to tyrants who let us keep military bases.

At the end of the day I feel no responsibility for the overpopulation of the planet. Morally I think that is the responsibility of those who are choosing to have children. I am not responsible for African birth rates. If you have a baby, then you better be ready to provide and that is totally on you. We should not feel guilt about this. Those are personal choices and I think self responsibility is fundamental. The furthest I will stretch to is believing a redistribution of taxes, to a certain degree, is fair and moral, to the extent that we promote equality of opportunity in our own countries, but it is not the duty of our countries to house the world and seemingly give away low skilled jobs or benefits whilst our own populace struggles. A few years ago child homelessness was at record levels, food bank use was at record levels. There are enough problems already and they are not being fixed.

I am not against immigration. I just think it should be controlled. Much more so. And you should not be able to bring in extended family and things of this nature. I posit the example of my friend who has been here for 10 years and every year renews his visa for a year. He accepts that he is a guest and knows that he can go home at any time if he wants to. Personally I think that is a bit harsh as he has never claimed welfare, always worked, paid his taxes, and provides value to the lives of thousands of young adults. I think he deserves better. However, this is how the rest of the world is. India, Korea, Japan, Thailand, China, Vietnam, the list really is a long one and you don't get a free pass without a passport, some required skill, and even then your pass is very restricted, typically to yearly increments. In many places you cannot purchase property and your rights are restricted. So much so that citizenship is very hard to obtain, especially if you are working full time teaching another language like my friend. That's a chap who has written books, has a wealth of experience, and continues to contribute. Next year, back to the immigration office.

This is where my perspective comes from. I don't think we owe Abdul from Pakistan anything and I feel no responsibility towards him. I wish him well, I hope he manages to improve his country, but unless he has skills another country needs, then he does not get a permanent free pass.

[smashup]

I think what makes Beanz angry is that he's derived from immigrants himself so is sympathetic to anyone else like him regardless of whether or not they represent a death cult.
He probably feels like he doesn't fit in or has been treated badly which is what fuels his anger.

[Beanz]

I think what makes Beanz angry is that he's derived from immigrants himself so is sympathetic to anyone else like him regardless of whether or not they represent a death cult.
He probably feels like he doesn't fit in or has been treated badly which is what fuels his anger.

The problem with that theory is that I am not angry. People seem to think if they keep saying it, it will make it true and that is some kind of substitute for an argument. It just shows how bereft of ideas you are.

Both my parents were born in England but that apparently is not enough for many to consider one English here. Not elsewhere. Recently it's been fine to have a fascist flag as an avatar, a white power symbol, be a holocaust denier, boast about gunning down immigrants etc here on Saddo and yet you are more offended by someone calling a spade a spade.

When you yourself as a mod advocate using a women's child as a suicide bomb and resort to replacing my signature with pictures of genitals and quips about circumcision you can no longer take the moral high ground.

The mods tolerated Freedom bending them over a barrel because you all hid behind the same argument that Tommy, Al and you use, insisting that prejudice, bigotry, whatever you want you call it, toward a religion is not the same as racism, when to all intents and purposes it is.

It leads to the crazy situation we have now where public figures like Peterson insist that somebody killing 50 muslims in NZ was not Islamophobic. Then Miles repeats it. Then just like Miles speaking for the UK in which he does not live, you lie just like Miles does and insist most kiwis and aussies don't give a shit and blame the muslims themselves.

Most English, most Brits do not agree with you or Tommy or Al or Miles, you are in the minority.

You and your fellow extremist do not speak for us anymore than a twat from Luton can claim to speak for the northwest, who do not want him, and some millenial bearded wanker from Swindon does not speak for the southwest.

[Gandalf]

I think what makes Beanz angry is that he's derived from immigrants himself so is sympathetic to anyone else like him regardless of whether or not they represent a death cult.
He probably feels like he doesn't fit in or has been treated badly which is what fuels his anger.

The problem with that theory is that I am not angry. People seem to think if they keep saying it, it will make it true and that is some kind of substitute for an argument. It just shows how bereft of ideas you are.

Both my parents were born in England but that apparently is not enough for many to consider one English here. Not elsewhere. Recently it's been fine to have a fascist flag as an avatar, a white power symbol, be a holocaust denier, boast about gunning down immigrants etc here on Saddo and yet you are more offended by someone calling a spade a spade.

When you yourself as a mod advocate using a women's child as a suicide bomb and resort to replacing my signature with pictures of genitals and quips about circumcision you can no longer take the moral high ground.

The mods tolerated Freedom bending them over a barrel because you all hid behind the same argument that Tommy, Al and you use, insisting that prejudice, bigotry, whatever you want you call it, toward a religion is not the same as racism, when to all intents and purposes it is.

It leads to the crazy situation we have now where public figures like Peterson insist that somebody killing 50 muslims in NZ was not Islamophobic. Then Miles repeats it. Then just like Miles speaking for the UK in which he does not live, you lie just like Miles does and insist most kiwis and aussies don't give a shit and blame the muslims themselves.

Most English, most Brits do not agree with you or Tommy or Al or Miles, you are in the minority.

You and your fellow extremist do not speak for us anymore than a twat from Luton can claim to speak for the northwest, who do not want him, and some millenial bearded wanker from Swindon does not speak for the southwest.

That is interesting because I didn't even know what Peterson had said about it. See, you follow him more than me. What I actually said was that he was partly shocked by what he saw in France which is the results of open borders. Go to Saudi Arabia as a Jew and see how well multi culturalism works for you, Beanz. All I am saying is that it is one way traffic and some people, who do become extreme, are going to feel boxed in, and lash out. I don't want to see that happen. I really don't want to to see innocent people killed or for New Zealand to turn fascist as a consequence.

I don't claim to be speaking for the entire UK either. That is in your head. I speak for myself and know that Robinson has a following because I know that his Facebook page was prolific, his You Tube channel growing, his Panodrama documentary was viewed by millions, by his book sales. Of course he has a following. He is pretty popular in the North which I don't think you know so well. That is where they converted me away from Corbynism. It is a dangerous place!

If we are all in the minority, then why is Brexit what people want? How about an actual referendum on immigration and see where that leads? I challenge you on that. You will be pretty upset.