The Environmental Thread

[TitoFan]

Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.

Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.

God knows I'm against a lot of Miles' broad-brush generalizations. But you can't just turn a blind eye on the typical Sudanese (to pick a country) woman having 10 kids and then having little to no food to give them, adding to the humanitarian crises in many parts of the world. The world's resources are a huge pool, but are not infinite. IMO, you can't solve the world's problems by putting all your efforts in one "proverbial basket". Parallel efforts are necessary in many areas. Making better use of our resources through the use of technologies that are now available. Protecting our environment, which by the way we're doing a shitty job of as a human race. All you need to do is look at the rivers of garbage flowing into the oceans on Facebook, or the "land masses" of pollution near some of the world's coastlines, to know it's no joking matter. But included in those efforts, there should be the education and means to establish some sort of birth control in areas where frankly people continue breeding like hamsters. Then we moan and groan about world hunger. Well hell... it takes no rocket scientist to know it's harder to feed 300 people than it does 30. Finally, yes... we have to be introspective and severely question the gross mis-distribution of wealth in the human race. It's incredible to think that there's people with billions and billions of dollars, while at the same time there's people who consider it a luxury to eat a few bread crumbs in any given day.

Just consider why impoverished families have so many children, infant mortality, extra child labour to support the family and someone to look after them when they are old are some reasons for the higher numbers. Not saying they are right but it must be hard to watch your child die, starve and be destitute if you do not require them.

Do you really think women having 15 babies are thinking of infant mortality rates? The extra child labor maybe, but it's still flimsy and improbable reasoning to try to explain something that shouldn't be. I'll venture to say that most of these births are just plainly due to lack of proper education and the resources for proper birth control. Still... regardless of the reasons, it's a burden on society when multiplied umpteenth times and another umpteenth times on top of that. Contrary to what some would like to show on this forum, talking about overpopulation and necessary birth control isn't automatically frivolous and uncaring. That is the message some would like to spread to make it seem that way... but they're not being completely honest, IMO. You don't treat problems by ignoring some of the basic factors and declaring them taboo for discussion. You look at every factor and treat it accordingly.

[Gandalf]

Well said, Tito. I am all for people becoming parents as long as they consider the implications of what they are doing and know they have the means to do so. I have plenty of friends who are parents and the most is two. I am hardly going around berating them as they are intelligent people who have the means of raising their children and do an excellent job. There is simply no justification for 6 or 7 children. I understand it in the animal kingdom. I had my cat operated on so she cannot have children (eugenics yay!), but if she was out there in nature she would be having dozens of babies. I like to think that human beings actually do have the ability to be conscious of their actions and to consider the impact they are having. Isn't that ability what separates us from being animals who just want to eat, sleep, and reproduce? It really is not difficult to not have dozen children and it really is selfish to do so if you have no resources. Having 10 more children does not automatically lead to 10 more available jobs. Mechanisation is taking away many of the most menial jobs and over time more and more people will become obsolete and yet there will be billions more people on a planet even more exploited. It simply cannot end well.

[TitoFan]

Overpopulation, particularly in some areas of the world, is a real problem. It's just not a politically-correct problem to mention. It's much more PC to blame other things, such as the imbalance of haves and have-nots in the world. Unfortunately... none of this serves to resolve the very real issues of world hunger, sickness, and abject poverty that comes with uncontrolled births in a society that can barely afford to feed the people already there. Babies and kids suffer from malnutrition, disease plagues, and subhuman conditions all around. What to do about this? Celebrity picture-taking with tribal kids might work in some circles... but it's not the answer. Real solutions need rolled-up sleeves and the willingness to tackle the problem from ALL angles, not just the politically-correct ones.

[Master]

Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.

Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.

God knows I'm against a lot of Miles' broad-brush generalizations. But you can't just turn a blind eye on the typical Sudanese (to pick a country) woman having 10 kids and then having little to no food to give them, adding to the humanitarian crises in many parts of the world. The world's resources are a huge pool, but are not infinite. IMO, you can't solve the world's problems by putting all your efforts in one "proverbial basket". Parallel efforts are necessary in many areas. Making better use of our resources through the use of technologies that are now available. Protecting our environment, which by the way we're doing a shitty job of as a human race. All you need to do is look at the rivers of garbage flowing into the oceans on Facebook, or the "land masses" of pollution near some of the world's coastlines, to know it's no joking matter. But included in those efforts, there should be the education and means to establish some sort of birth control in areas where frankly people continue breeding like hamsters. Then we moan and groan about world hunger. Well hell... it takes no rocket scientist to know it's harder to feed 300 people than it does 30. Finally, yes... we have to be introspective and severely question the gross mis-distribution of wealth in the human race. It's incredible to think that there's people with billions and billions of dollars, while at the same time there's people who consider it a luxury to eat a few bread crumbs in any given day.

Just consider why impoverished families have so many children, infant mortality, extra child labour to support the family and someone to look after them when they are old are some reasons for the higher numbers. Not saying they are right but it must be hard to watch your child die, starve and be destitute if you do not require them.

Do you really think women having 15 babies are thinking of infant mortality rates? The extra child labor maybe, but it's still flimsy and improbable reasoning to try to explain something that shouldn't be. I'll venture to say that most of these births are just plainly due to lack of proper education and the resources for proper birth control. Still... regardless of the reasons, it's a burden on society when multiplied umpteenth times and another umpteenth times on top of that. Contrary to what some would like to show on this forum, talking about overpopulation and necessary birth control isn't automatically frivolous and uncaring. That is the message some would like to spread to make it seem that way... but they're not being completely honest, IMO. You don't treat problems by ignoring some of the basic factors and declaring them taboo for discussion. You look at every factor and treat it accordingly.

I agree education, contraception and better choices should be made but pointing out that these are the reasons why it happens.

[TitoFan]

Blaming overpopulation is just another example of parroting neo liberal dogma in order to avoid confronting the real issue. There is more than enough food and resources but if you want to continually defend the incredibly unequal distribution of that and the maintenance of a hyper elite class you will of course turn on and attack the poor.

Blame single mothers, pretend all black families have been abandoned by their fathers, pretend that anyone not having gold reserves are feckless and responsible for squandering resources, blame the EU, blame lefties, blame anti fascists, blame champagne socialists, blame immigrants and victims of war, pretend climate change is a hoax. Anything but confront the fact that the changes needed will mean a different way of living for the west because to pretend otherwise will end up in our own extinction.

God knows I'm against a lot of Miles' broad-brush generalizations. But you can't just turn a blind eye on the typical Sudanese (to pick a country) woman having 10 kids and then having little to no food to give them, adding to the humanitarian crises in many parts of the world. The world's resources are a huge pool, but are not infinite. IMO, you can't solve the world's problems by putting all your efforts in one "proverbial basket". Parallel efforts are necessary in many areas. Making better use of our resources through the use of technologies that are now available. Protecting our environment, which by the way we're doing a shitty job of as a human race. All you need to do is look at the rivers of garbage flowing into the oceans on Facebook, or the "land masses" of pollution near some of the world's coastlines, to know it's no joking matter. But included in those efforts, there should be the education and means to establish some sort of birth control in areas where frankly people continue breeding like hamsters. Then we moan and groan about world hunger. Well hell... it takes no rocket scientist to know it's harder to feed 300 people than it does 30. Finally, yes... we have to be introspective and severely question the gross mis-distribution of wealth in the human race. It's incredible to think that there's people with billions and billions of dollars, while at the same time there's people who consider it a luxury to eat a few bread crumbs in any given day.

Just consider why impoverished families have so many children, infant mortality, extra child labour to support the family and someone to look after them when they are old are some reasons for the higher numbers. Not saying they are right but it must be hard to watch your child die, starve and be destitute if you do not require them.

Do you really think women having 15 babies are thinking of infant mortality rates? The extra child labor maybe, but it's still flimsy and improbable reasoning to try to explain something that shouldn't be. I'll venture to say that most of these births are just plainly due to lack of proper education and the resources for proper birth control. Still... regardless of the reasons, it's a burden on society when multiplied umpteenth times and another umpteenth times on top of that. Contrary to what some would like to show on this forum, talking about overpopulation and necessary birth control isn't automatically frivolous and uncaring. That is the message some would like to spread to make it seem that way... but they're not being completely honest, IMO. You don't treat problems by ignoring some of the basic factors and declaring them taboo for discussion. You look at every factor and treat it accordingly.

I agree education, contraception and better choices should be made but pointing out that these are the reasons why it happens.

I'm not being unsympathetic with the plight of these countries with exploding populations and nothing to offer them. None of us can truly know what it's like to be born into such conditions. But I believe it's all of our collective responsibility to try and help resolve some of these issues. Not only because of humanitarian reasons, but because we all share the same Earth and all its resources. I also realize talking to a village woman about contraception is going to fall on deaf or non-comprehensive ears. But that doesn't change or erase the fact that babies are being pumped out at disproportionate rates in the very areas that can afford them the least. All I'm saying is... it's easy to sit back and criticize others for mentioning the raw facts (not saying you're doing it) while claiming some higher moral ground. It's a way of putting on blinders and prancing off to the next issue.