Would Joe Louis be too small to be successful at heavyweight today ?

[Primo Carnera]

Luckily boxing isn't soley based on statistics and you partly make the case for me why Muhammid Ali is the best heavyweight of all time. He was not the youngest, oldest, longest champion but still considered the best by the majority of people. His competition was great Joe Frazier, Liston and Foreman could have been champions longer if they lived in another period.

It is well known why Ali did not make consecutive defences

Ali was all business in the ring and did not always have that popularity that you claim he rode.

There is no federal case or attack just look with your eyes and appreciate his boxing qualities.

Notice I did not criticise Louis or Rocky.

You said Ali was ahead of Joe Louis I said otherwise. I then provided examples as to why Joe Louis was better. I know that you're misunderstanding what I'm saying because you're assuming a different tone than I wrote my post in. Ali was a great boxer and unique in that he was the champion but also a celebrity at the same time. I don't want to feel forced to bow before an Ali statue every time I mention his name. He's a great great great boxer that I don't think is the greatest of all time despite what he said about himself but don't expect me to kiss his ass. He gets the respect he gets from me what can I tell you?

I’m with you on this, people have this beautiful ideal of Ali. As a Boxer, Fighter, call it what you like, he wasn’t the greatest. As a sporting icon , we’ll thats clearly a different story.
I have to say, if he hadn’t of lost the peak 3 years of his career , it would be a very different conversation , I’m certain of that. But it is what it is and it’s not gonna change.
I know what you mean about how we’re not allowed to even very slightly criticise Ali. When Floyd pointed out about him losing his Title to a 7 fight novice when he was 34 years old , people wouldn’t see it for what it’s meant. You can’t argue against the point unfortunately.

[Master]

Luckily boxing isn't soley based on statistics and you partly make the case for me why Muhammid Ali is the best heavyweight of all time. He was not the youngest, oldest, longest champion but still considered the best by the majority of people. His competition was great Joe Frazier, Liston and Foreman could have been champions longer if they lived in another period.

It is well known why Ali did not make consecutive defences

Ali was all business in the ring and did not always have that popularity that you claim he rode.

There is no federal case or attack just look with your eyes and appreciate his boxing qualities.

Notice I did not criticise Louis or Rocky.

You said Ali was ahead of Joe Louis I said otherwise. I then provided examples as to why Joe Louis was better. I know that you're misunderstanding what I'm saying because you're assuming a different tone than I wrote my post in. Ali was a great boxer and unique in that he was the champion but also a celebrity at the same time. I don't want to feel forced to bow before an Ali statue every time I mention his name. He's a great great great boxer that I don't think is the greatest of all time despite what he said about himself but don't expect me to kiss his ass. He gets the respect he gets from me what can I tell you?

I’m with you on this, people have this beautiful ideal of Ali. As a Boxer, Fighter, call it what you like, he wasn’t the greatest. As a sporting icon , we’ll thats clearly a different story.
I have to say, if he hadn’t of lost the peak 3 years of his career , it would be a very different conversation , I’m certain of that. But it is what it is and it’s not gonna change.
I know what you mean about how we’re not allowed to even very slightly criticise Ali. When Floyd pointed out about him losing his Title to a 7 fight novice when he was 34 years old , people wouldn’t see it for what it’s meant. You can’t argue against the point unfortunately.

You can argue all you want but you are intelligent enough to know that Ali was old in terms of ring years. He was at the tail end of a hard and distinguished career and still avenged the loss.

[ykdadamaja]

Yes. Louis was too small and too motionless.

[Primo Carnera]

Luckily boxing isn't soley based on statistics and you partly make the case for me why Muhammid Ali is the best heavyweight of all time. He was not the youngest, oldest, longest champion but still considered the best by the majority of people. His competition was great Joe Frazier, Liston and Foreman could have been champions longer if they lived in another period.

It is well known why Ali did not make consecutive defences

Ali was all business in the ring and did not always have that popularity that you claim he rode.

There is no federal case or attack just look with your eyes and appreciate his boxing qualities.

Notice I did not criticise Louis or Rocky.

You said Ali was ahead of Joe Louis I said otherwise. I then provided examples as to why Joe Louis was better. I know that you're misunderstanding what I'm saying because you're assuming a different tone than I wrote my post in. Ali was a great boxer and unique in that he was the champion but also a celebrity at the same time. I don't want to feel forced to bow before an Ali statue every time I mention his name. He's a great great great boxer that I don't think is the greatest of all time despite what he said about himself but don't expect me to kiss his ass. He gets the respect he gets from me what can I tell you?

I’m with you on this, people have this beautiful ideal of Ali. As a Boxer, Fighter, call it what you like, he wasn’t the greatest. As a sporting icon , we’ll thats clearly a different story.
I have to say, if he hadn’t of lost the peak 3 years of his career , it would be a very different conversation , I’m certain of that. But it is what it is and it’s not gonna change.
I know what you mean about how we’re not allowed to even very slightly criticise Ali. When Floyd pointed out about him losing his Title to a 7 fight novice when he was 34 years old , people wouldn’t see it for what it’s meant. You can’t argue against the point unfortunately.

You can argue all you want but you are intelligent enough to know that Ali was old in terms of ring years. He was at the tail end of a hard and distinguished career and still avenged the loss.

firstly you’ve got to understand that this is no “Bill Paxtom” style witch hunt. Ali was amazing and I love him.
But you have to be honest. When you say Old in terms of ring years, well some of that was his own doing and choice.
1. The way he chose to fight against monsters like Foreman and Shavers. I’m not saying he was wrong, it was incredible, but getting hit a lot will take its toll.
2. Fighting in places that will drain the life out of you like Manila and Zaire. But that’s where the money was.
But on the spin side , he also had 3 years rest as well, so that should balance it out a bit.

[Master]

Luckily boxing isn't soley based on statistics and you partly make the case for me why Muhammid Ali is the best heavyweight of all time. He was not the youngest, oldest, longest champion but still considered the best by the majority of people. His competition was great Joe Frazier, Liston and Foreman could have been champions longer if they lived in another period.

It is well known why Ali did not make consecutive defences

Ali was all business in the ring and did not always have that popularity that you claim he rode.

There is no federal case or attack just look with your eyes and appreciate his boxing qualities.

Notice I did not criticise Louis or Rocky.

You said Ali was ahead of Joe Louis I said otherwise. I then provided examples as to why Joe Louis was better. I know that you're misunderstanding what I'm saying because you're assuming a different tone than I wrote my post in. Ali was a great boxer and unique in that he was the champion but also a celebrity at the same time. I don't want to feel forced to bow before an Ali statue every time I mention his name. He's a great great great boxer that I don't think is the greatest of all time despite what he said about himself but don't expect me to kiss his ass. He gets the respect he gets from me what can I tell you?

I’m with you on this, people have this beautiful ideal of Ali. As a Boxer, Fighter, call it what you like, he wasn’t the greatest. As a sporting icon , we’ll thats clearly a different story.
I have to say, if he hadn’t of lost the peak 3 years of his career , it would be a very different conversation , I’m certain of that. But it is what it is and it’s not gonna change.
I know what you mean about how we’re not allowed to even very slightly criticise Ali. When Floyd pointed out about him losing his Title to a 7 fight novice when he was 34 years old , people wouldn’t see it for what it’s meant. You can’t argue against the point unfortunately.

You can argue all you want but you are intelligent enough to know that Ali was old in terms of ring years. He was at the tail end of a hard and distinguished career and still avenged the loss.

firstly you’ve got to understand that this is no “Bill Paxtom” style witch hunt. Ali was amazing and I love him.
But you have to be honest. When you say Old in terms of ring years, well some of that was his own doing and choice.
1. The way he chose to fight against monsters like Foreman and Shavers. I’m not saying he was wrong, it was incredible, but getting hit a lot will take its toll.
2. Fighting in places that will drain the life out of you like Manila and Zaire. But that’s where the money was.
But on the spin side , he also had 3 years rest as well, so that should balance it out a bit.

If life was that simple where you can pick and choose who and the locations you fight you would be just another heavyweight. Those are the fights that make him the best heavyweight ever. The 3 years out hurt the momentum he was on and made him a less mobile fighter which meant he had to show his resilience and courage. I amsure Ali would have preferred to have danced his way to victory and use his boxing skills.

I know you are and El Kabong are not hating but I am pointing out holes in the critique of him.

[Ron Swanson]

Luckily boxing isn't soley based on statistics and you partly make the case for me why Muhammid Ali is the best heavyweight of all time. He was not the youngest, oldest, longest champion but still considered the best by the majority of people. His competition was great Joe Frazier, Liston and Foreman could have been champions longer if they lived in another period.

It is well known why Ali did not make consecutive defences

Ali was all business in the ring and did not always have that popularity that you claim he rode.

There is no federal case or attack just look with your eyes and appreciate his boxing qualities.

Notice I did not criticise Louis or Rocky.

You said Ali was ahead of Joe Louis I said otherwise. I then provided examples as to why Joe Louis was better. I know that you're misunderstanding what I'm saying because you're assuming a different tone than I wrote my post in. Ali was a great boxer and unique in that he was the champion but also a celebrity at the same time. I don't want to feel forced to bow before an Ali statue every time I mention his name. He's a great great great boxer that I don't think is the greatest of all time despite what he said about himself but don't expect me to kiss his ass. He gets the respect he gets from me what can I tell you?

I’m with you on this, people have this beautiful ideal of Ali. As a Boxer, Fighter, call it what you like, he wasn’t the greatest. As a sporting icon , we’ll thats clearly a different story.
I have to say, if he hadn’t of lost the peak 3 years of his career , it would be a very different conversation , I’m certain of that. But it is what it is and it’s not gonna change.
I know what you mean about how we’re not allowed to even very slightly criticise Ali. When Floyd pointed out about him losing his Title to a 7 fight novice when he was 34 years old , people wouldn’t see it for what it’s meant. You can’t argue against the point unfortunately.

You can argue all you want but you are intelligent enough to know that Ali was old in terms of ring years. He was at the tail end of a hard and distinguished career and still avenged the loss.

Huge Ali fan so don’t take this as a criticism of him, like you have said he was past his best. But if memory serves me the ref was forced to stop Ali’s holding an average of 15 times per round in that fight. Left right hold, left right hold, left right hold. It’s best to not point to that as an accomplishment since it should have been a disqualification. What Ali did is enough to champion him without building low points into high points.

The mans talent and will are a remarkable combination. Perhaps the greatest combination of the 2 of all time. But we can never know for sure. Comparing eras is a guessing game weighted by personal preferences. Lewis was talented but lazy, Tyson was talented but mentally fragile, Ali was talented but refused fundamentals he could have employed, Louis was talented but slow of foot. Lewis could have beaten Ali but lost to a number of Ali’s opponents, Ali could have beaten Louis but lost to a few of his opponents. The could haves could go on forever.

I, like you, think Ali is the greatest. But we can’t say we know that. And we can’t tell others that disagree that they are wrong. Well, we could, but that would point to our ignorance more than theirs.

[Primo Carnera]

Just to clarify, I’m not saying Louis beats Ali and I’m not saying Ali isn’t the greatest HW Of all time. I just don’t think he was the Greatest Boxer of all time . Sorry, we’ve taken this thread way off piste.

[SlimTrae]

I'm under the impression that if Joe were born in this era, he'd weigh the same, because of where he got his genes from. Example: Primo wasn't born big because of the era he came up in, it was his genes that determined it. So In my boldest opinion Joe Louis weighs the same no matter when he was born. Eddie Chambers to Chris Byrd would be the same size had they been born in the 1920s. Jack Johnson was ripped back then, Cleveland Williams had a body builder physique but today they would both be accused of juicing.

It is interesting how Ali's opponents are meticulously scrutinized, but not Joe Louis opponents. They all fought tough back then, they were the best then. Same for Ali's opponents. They, too grew up tough & were the best at that time.

Who were the great fighters that Joe fought? What made them great? I'm asking to learn, as I have no reason to counter nor disagree.

When I'm asked that of Ali..my reply is not so much based on just who he fought & beat but HOW he did it.
Ali was the 1st HW that used movement constantly. How could a methodical Joe do against such a style? As a result of Ali, not Joe, many fighters have adjusted and or adopted his style. Regardless of weight division.

Did Joe bring something to the game that wasn't done before? Just asking.

Ali beat up the old guards like Patterson & Moore on his way to the title, not after he got it like Marciano or many of today's HWs.
Ali's fight with Cleveleand Williams shows him throwing lightening combination upstairs...and believe or not..downstairs! His defense consisted of bobbing, weaving, this 6'3 master of footwork got under Cleveland's punches. At times he threw coming forward which had Big Cat bleeding all day.

Clay Ali went on to prove he could do this for 15rds post 1970s. Fluid footwork, combination punching, not pot-shotting. Getting under punches, using reflexes to just back straight out & evade. Time and counter.
See Liston vs Williams-- 2 guys who were accurate punchers, stayed in the pocket & didn't throw haymakers. Ali took these 2 apart. Easily at that!

He banged against Doug Jones, he outboxed Liston at 19 fights in the game. He beat the F outta Williams.

I see his career in the same light of a Pernell Whitaker or Ray Leonard as neither fighters had long careers, but looking at what they did and how they did it is taken into consideration.
Neither Pernell, Ray or Ali had long careers without a loss. So ti doesn't negate their greatness, rather shortens the period in which they claim greatness.

Respect to those who say Joe Louis was one if not the best. But I agree with the old Jew in the movie Coming to America...Marciano beat Joe Louis' azz, retirement or not!
Claiming if he hit you he got you, not true. Again Conn outboxed him & at timse put combinations on him, please put up the video here & we can go round by round and see a prime Joe compromised by the skills of a Billy Conn that went on to do what? This guy didn't fall to one shot. It was many shots because he stayed on the inside. Joe's son talked about how after that fight The Brown Bomber was swollen from ear to ear. & LHW did that!

David Tua on the inside wouldn't get shots in on Joe? Joe would force his way inside against the master clinching Klitschkos? How does he time & catch Fury who uses reach, lateral movement & countering?

Last- Wilder & Joe weighing similar IMO isn't something I'd call the one in the same. As Skinny dudes have shown from the Explosive Thin man aka Arguello to Hearns to Wilder the speed in which they throw & extend their long azz reach is how they generate power. Joe did it standard, natural power swinging from the hip. So his size today would matter along with. ..as Jack Johnson put it "mechanical" footwork and susceptibility to certain punches would make him a great in our era? yes, I'd say so. But he wouldn't have gone 25 wins as in 1936-1950. Like Ali, Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson he would've lost and more than once in his prime.
1976-1990 he beats all? 1986-2000 he beats all? 2006-current?

[Master]

Joe Louis would stand a good chance against Wilder if he got on the inside and let his hooks rip into him. Joe could also end up knocked out as any heavyweight ever could against Wilder because he hits so damn hard. Joe Louis was technically a better boxer than Wilder will ever be.

[SlimTrae]

Joe Louis would stand a good chance against Wilder if he got on the inside and let his hooks rip into him. Joe could also end up knocked out as any heavyweight ever could against Wilder because he hits so damn hard. Joe Louis was technically a better boxer than Wilder will ever be.

I think he would get inside as well. As you stated Joe was a technical boxer, something Wilder can forget about. He'd probably chop him down from the body & up. A slow beating. Since Wilder has been known to move backwards and throws ok would be his best chance. But this is the fight where I'd agree Wilder could run, but he can't hide!


I'm not sure about AJ or Fury.