The "Can We Keep it Civil?" Thread

[TitoFan]

I studied with many types of people. But I'll mention two types and you can make what you will out of that.

Joe (for the sake of the anecdote) had to study very hard. Learning didn't come easy to him. So basically he worked his butt off. He was never in the top 5 percent as far as GPA, but he did well enough. He graduated purely out of sheer work ethic. He knew he had to study harder than most, and he did. Today he's a successful professional, and does very well in his field.

Jack (another made up name) was the exact opposite. He could read something once and it stuck to him. But he was a bit lazy. He leaned on his amazing learning activity to get by. Didn't work hard at all... but still did well enough to graduate. Today he's doing ok... but not as well as Joe. As a professional, I'd recommend Joe over Jack any day of the week.

Now.... if given an IQ test, it's obvious Jack would score higher than Joe. But does that matter?

This is why I don't put the weight on IQ that you apparently do. Not saying it's not important. But it's not the magic predictor of success that sometimes you seem to say it is.

[Gandalf]

I studied with many types of people. But I'll mention two types and you can make what you will out of that.

Joe (for the sake of the anecdote) had to study very hard. Learning didn't come easy to him. So basically he worked his butt off. He was never in the top 5 percent as far as GPA, but he did well enough. He graduated purely out of sheer work ethic. He knew he had to study harder than most, and he did. Today he's a successful professional, and does very well in his field.

Jack (another made up name) was the exact opposite. He could read something once and it stuck to him. But he was a bit lazy. He leaned on his amazing learning activity to get by. Didn't work hard at all... but still did well enough to graduate. Today he's doing ok... but not as well as Joe. As a professional, I'd recommend Joe over Jack any day of the week.

Now.... if given an IQ test, it's obvious Jack would score higher than Joe. But does that matter?

This is why I don't put the weight on IQ that you apparently do. Not saying it's not important. But it's not the magic predictor of success that sometimes you seem to say it is.

I think what you are putting forwards there is someone who had it by nature and another by nurture and both could, let's say, at 20 do pretty well in an IQ test, but Jack just does it better. I would agree with you. Jack seems more your Oscar Wilde type where everything comes pretty easily, but then Joe is more your Orwell. Not as spectacular, but you know he is churning out the work, working at his craft and he is very solid regardless. Not dazzling the crowds, but a good worker.

Your example is an interesting one and I guess it would also depend on which fields they were to go in. The average CEO of a top firm will put in 70-80 hours a week and I think in a situation like that Jack would come unstuck such as when Wilde became an editor which did not require even a third of that and would show up more sporadically until eventually people realized he just wasn't up the minimal requirements at all. Joe, if the ability to process language is there even if not with a book in each hand and he is willing to dedicate himself, then he would likely be the better editor. I see that in the writing of Orwell. I don't think his work is dazzling in the way of a Wilde or as complex as in Dickens, but it is fantastic in a more simple way and is his own voice.

Ideally you want a smart person who is also very dedicated, but it would depend on the line of work. IQ is a predictor of success though and though there are obvious exceptions, you are typically going to find the Professor of Mathematics has a higher IQ than let's say the average police officer. Sure the police officer might be very good at what he does, but he will typically be of pretty average intelligence while the Professor will have an IQ perhaps even 150 and up. The typical surgeon will be supremely educated and need to be very responsible, by contrast the average shop worker will slyly send a text and is typically a league below, but maybe average intelligence. They have the tools to do what needs to be done. That is a huge differential though,

One shouldn't generalize too much and there will always be exceptions to the patterns. There will on occasion be a PhD taxi driver. Or a Starbucks server with a Rainman brain or what have you, but on the whole IQ will predict success. It is why prison populations do have IQ levels below the norm and why unmarried mothers do have an IQ about 10 points below that of married mothers. Of course there are very smart single Mothers but as a whole IQ does influence behavior.

See, not a single use of the word cunt. Oops, I did it. Right, I haven't even had breakfast yet and if I continue like this really will be like Joe.

[Gandalf]

A final very quick observation is that though some argue strongly for nature, I actually do think people can be nurtured to improve intelligence and even if not intelligence, certainly improve their moral awareness thus making society a better place. That's where I have agreed that 90% of the UK primary education is solid. There is nothing wrong with that. However, some, and typically the less capable, will fall through the cracks and that is life.

[walrus]

This thread needs a bump. Tits is right, a little civility goes a long way

[TitoFan]

This thread needs a bump. Tits is right, a little civility goes a long way

Notice the absence of a certain someone from the thread.

A thread that a dozen posts in has nary a mean word in it.

Like wearing a garlic necklace to keep Dracula away.



In actuality, it's kind of a neat psychological experiment.

[Gandalf]

Isn't 'Civil War' the strangest expression? What is civil about people of the same country killing one another?