The Brexit Thread

[Gandalf]

Furthermore, how am I supposed to answer a question like 'Have you defended May, Boris and Mogg?' That is such a broad question relating to 3 very different people and the only thing I have defended two of them on is a single principle and I have never endorsed the other. So, you see where I am going with this? You are inventing positions which I am then expected to defend. By contrast you actually voted against Brexit. That says it all. There is no discussion with you. My argument is a moral argument based around the sovereignty of the nation state. Your mind is set and you won't rest until you get what you want. So, you don't get to dictate terms with me, nor Brexit, nor anyone. You have lost.

Did elkabong quit in disgust again? Who is running our few loyal members away? I don’t think I ever ran anyone away except for Brock and Big D

I don't want to speak for Lyle, but go back and read who was trying to be more understanding and reasonable in those interactions between him and Beanz. There is always a blind eye turned to it. Then people say 'Oh, but oh, where is the new blood and where did everyone go?' That's why I just sling it back at him. I know you cannot be reasonable with him.

All evil extremists and Nazi's obviously.

[walrus]

Furthermore, how am I supposed to answer a question like 'Have you defended May, Boris and Mogg?' That is such a broad question relating to 3 very different people and the only thing I have defended two of them on is a single principle and I have never endorsed the other. So, you see where I am going with this? You are inventing positions which I am then expected to defend. By contrast you actually voted against Brexit. That says it all. There is no discussion with you. My argument is a moral argument based around the sovereignty of the nation state. Your mind is set and you won't rest until you get what you want. So, you don't get to dictate terms with me, nor Brexit, nor anyone. You have lost.

Did elkabong quit in disgust again? Who is running our few loyal members away? I don’t think I ever ran anyone away except for Brock and Big D

I don't want to speak for Lyle, but go back and read who was trying to be more understanding and reasonable in those interactions between him and Beanz. There is always a blind eye turned to it. Then people say 'Oh, but oh, where is the new blood and where did everyone go?' That's why I just sling it back at him. I know you cannot be reasonable with him.

All evil extremists and Nazi's obviously.

Ya I was following the argument. I’m trying to go easy on the politics just reading a couple books about different forms of government through history. There does seem to be a hair trigger here lately a little worse than in the past. The issue at this point isn’t getting new blood in its about retaining the dudes who have been here forever. This is my primary source of boxing news and I love the off topic shit we get into but endless argument does get boring. Some argument is needed and can be quite fun but when even posing a question sets off a flame it is a little too much but that’s just my take. If I split I will miss tits and especially miles. Then again miles has left me like 75 times so that shouldn’t be a big deal.

[Gandalf]

It is a bit harsh. No doubt about that. Personally I only swing back when old L gets cranky. Just because I do not live in the UK does not mean I do not care about or consider what goes on. I have nephews and nieces that have to grow up there and friends who have returned. I want them to be raised in an independent country that teaches them self discipline and that with a few sensible choices they can do alright. I am hardly some maniac wanting to kill off everyone via medicine shortages. In fact it is some remainers who have argued that OAP's need to die off to deal with the 'Brexit problem'. Now that is sick. I obviously don't want anyone to die, but if people are going to be hysterical then I will call them hysterical.

Any change involves compromise and a period to adapt and it seems the people are ready for it. So just get on with it. Now if that means a bunch of twats want to erase the NHS then the people should rightfully revolt and stop that and history tells us they can do that. They can indeed bring any government down if they want. They cannot bring Brussels down though and thus being out of their clutches is for the best. I certainly don't advocate an American style health care system as it is crap and only works if you have money. At the same time though, I think the UK healthcare system could be improved a lot.

My argument about Filipino's was not racist, but actually a point about national differences. A UK nurse could technically go to the Philippines but be poor, relatively speaking. They cannot own land there. And it would be strictly controlled. Likely have to return unless they marrry a local. Yet the Filipino can go into a country on a tourist visa and very easily gain access to a country and stay permanently and bring extended family and then buy up land. I oppose that as it is simply unfair. It is why I railed against Romanians being able to take advantage of the UK.

My views are shaped by seeing countries with real limitations when it comes to borders. It isn't racist but based on factual observation. Beanz knows bugger all about visa systems and other countries. If you go to China, what are your rights, Walrus? Even married to a Chinese you don't get anything. Yet we are racist despite most of the world being pretty strong on this stuff.

That's what makes me laugh. Down there in the Plymouth bubble. He hasn't got a clue. I have a friend here who is married but will have to renew a visa every 2 years and always that risk of going home. I would like that to certainly apply to foreigners in the West, certainly those not married or integrated, and have limits and controls.

I am shaped by the stronger systems I observe rather than any racism. It applies to everyone regardless of color.

[Fenster]

@Gandalf - serious question, why do you spell like an American? I assume that's how you have to teach? If so, why have they adopted American over English?

[Gandalf]

@Gandalf - serious question, why do you spell like an American? I assume that's how you have to teach? If so, why have they adopted American over English?

I will answer this question. The reason I spell like an American is because if I spell the word favourite like this, then at this moment in time it has a squiggly red line underneath it which is so aesthetically displeasing that I just feel an automatic need to eradicate it. The system here on Saddo's is itself Americanized. Even Beanz does it a fair bit.

Nope, I have complete autonomy in how I teach and so whilst public school materials will often be American in style, I generally mix it up and will add a Mum and a flat and lift or what have you and point out spelling differentials. If anything I find a lot of young people prefer British English. They like the sound having experienced years of nasal audio and exaggerated intonation in the American style. A lot of materials these days incorporate a wider range of intonations though. Many youngsters are into films or music and like the romantic notion of what constitutes being English which in reality has of course become something of a myth. Thus trips to Europe or London end up being 'Huh?' Oh well.

Then again some will prefer the American style as their intent is to work for a US firm here or study in north America. My wife says working for US firms is generally a bit naff though. They don't treat people very well. On the whole though you get plenty of Aussies and Canadians and Brits and Irish all doing their own English thing. We all sound different though and if they wanted America they would only hire Americans. Due to population mass there are more of them but overall a fair balance. 5 English people at my old place actually which is half the team.

[Beanz]

Basically your lack of an argument Gandalf boils down to.

'My name is Gandalf and I have no interest in what anyone else thinks or has to say. What I feel takes precedence over facts. Everyone has to take notice of me. I have read stuff and watched youtube so my opinion Trumps all, but personal direct experience is irrelevant unless it is mine. Anyone who disagrees with me is a mentally ill druggy and lazy layabout liar who can be dismissed. I am much more interested in identity politics than conversing or debating with individuals and so I will not only dismiss entire groups based on what some loser on YouTube tells me to, I will also project that attitude onto those I see as my enemies and invent their position rather than listen to them or read what they have typed. It is intolerable to be expected to consider anyone else's opinion or direct personal experience and answering questions or debating is a no no for me. I am Gandalf and my views are superior because I am superior. '

[Beanz]

And you have still not answered one question. We all know what your opinion is so now is your opportunity to engage. If you don't want to, then post in another thread or start your own.

El Kabong left because he was frustrated by the fact that I had what he saw was the cheek to answer him back and address his accusations rather than just stop posting in a thread I started.

Two entire years with both of you not only refusing to engage but as accusing me of being a traitor, not British etc for refusing to endorse the bigoted and ignorant opinions you used Brexit as an excuse to express.

Despite neither of you living here or voting in the referendum you even started having a go at Master who actually lives here and voted for leave.

You and El Kabong became more and more frustrated and started stepping over the line with the insults, getting personal and attacking my family etc and then turned the table and feigned shock when I defended myself as though you both had been sweetness and light all as long.

Playing the victim.

For 14yrs in different ways you have both played the victim.

Neither of you even live here. Fucking hell how much more do you want the forum to be bent around your wishes and made in your image.

Go and fucking post on the Morrisey forum if you can't get through a day without Brits and expats patting you on the back for your bigoted nonsense.

Now please answer each question. I will number them if that helps.

[Gandalf]

Basically your lack of an argument Gandalf boils down to.

'My name is Gandalf and I have no interest in what anyone else thinks or has to say. What I feel takes precedence over facts. Everyone has to take notice of me. I have read stuff and watched youtube so my opinion Trumps all, but personal direct experience is irrelevant unless it is mine. Anyone who disagrees with me is a mentally ill druggy and lazy layabout liar who can be dismissed. I am much more interested in identity politics than conversing or debating with individuals and so I will not only dismiss entire groups based on what some loser on YouTube tells me to, I will also project that attitude onto those I see as my enemies and invent their position rather than listen to them or read what they have typed. It is intolerable to be expected to consider anyone else's opinion or direct personal experience and answering questions or debating is a no no for me. I am Gandalf and my views are superior because I am superior. '

Not really. I am just an ordinary bloke, but then if I say that you will say I am not an ordinary bloke. Then if I say that I am not an ordinary bloke, then you will say I am very ordinary and boring. It doesn't really matter.

All I have put forward is that I think nation states are the best way to operate. Nation states make up most countries in the world. It means they can make their own decisions and if democratic hold their elite to account better. It is that simple. It has nothing to do with how superior I am or am not. It is just my view that nation states work better. Greece now knows this. Hong Kong will learn this. And Ireland preferred this before strangely giving up on independence to go all EU mad.

You don't seem to have any faith in your country whence voting to remain. Your argument has been had, you made your point. Yet the people disagreed with you and so out you go. I don't really see what there is to debate and plus you think my voice is meaningless because I didn't vote and am a mad racist who doesn't live there. So why would you even want to debate with me?

I have said that I don't want anything to happen to your common law wife or anyone else for that matter. I just think your arguments lately have all been about common law father in law and his holiday home, the half siblings in Europe and medicine. I am not sure they are serious things to worry about. Why not holiday in Cambodia or whatever. I am sure it would save him more money, but no doubt get him stared at by the 'racists' (curious people) there.

I happen to agree with you that the NHS is not up for sale, but the main thing here is sovereignty. Once that is obtained, then the NHS would no doubt unify everyone and you can bring down a government that goes bonkers very quickly. The only weakness is apathy. It is one reason why I love politics out here actually. They genuinely bring governments down and it couldn't happen in an Asian Superstate. It just couldn't happen.

[Gandalf]

Actually, that came out wrong. There is a lot of Englishness out there, but I think there is a kind of stomping down on it and you see it less and less in many large cities. I really felt that last year when I was there and in response to Beanz' question about Corbyn that is when I started to change. Actually seeing England again made me see how angry people seemed to be, really ordinary people, who were just living ordinary lives and had lived in communities that had changed against their will. I got around and saw how cities had changed and in turn I realized I had been naive to think Labour could ever do anything to listen to those concerns. My own distance had made me underestimate the true social impact that the EU and beyond EU immigration has had. It wasn't quite England. Brock would say the same about New York or whatever.

I would urge anyone visiting England to get out to villages and smaller scenic towns with cricket greens and churches. That's where it is now. It is in the places untouched and I would argue the same here too. You have to avoid the big cities and get out into out the way areas away from apartments and see life at that core level. I don't know, something about it all just woke me up and I knew despite my hatred of Tony Blair and my shame at the banks and the wars, that that doesn't define my Englishness and neither does my messed up family. The Englishness is in me and it is all I can ever be. So, when it gets leveled at me that I am not English or whatever, my response is that my entire livelihood is based upon being as English as I can be. It is in how I talk and is in the essence of anything I will ever do. Wherever I go in the world people will always see me as English and the same cannot be said of many other people who can never sound like me or look me or be like me. It does NOT make me better, but it means my core is English. Likewise, nobody could ever take me seriously as a Korean and I get it. My pronunciation is different, I look different, I am different. I am at heart an Englishman. I cannot disguise it.

[Fenster]

@Gandalf - serious question, why do you spell like an American? I assume that's how you have to teach? If so, why have they adopted American over English?

I will answer this question. The reason I spell like an American is because if I spell the word favourite like this, then at this moment in time it has a squiggly red line underneath it which is so aesthetically displeasing that I just feel an automatic need to eradicate it. The system here on Saddo's is itself Americanized. Even Beanz does it a fair bit.

Nope, I have complete autonomy in how I teach and so whilst public school materials will often be American in style, I generally mix it up and will add a Mum and a flat and lift or what have you and point out spelling differentials. If anything I find a lot of young people prefer British English. They like the sound having experienced years of nasal audio and exaggerated intonation in the American style. A lot of materials these days incorporate a wider range of intonations though. Many youngsters are into films or music and like the romantic notion of what constitutes being English which in reality has of course become something of a myth. Thus trips to Europe or London end up being 'Huh?' Oh well.

Then again some will prefer the American style as their intent is to work for a US firm here or study in north America. My wife says working for US firms is generally a bit naff though. They don't treat people very well. On the whole though you get plenty of Aussies and Canadians and Brits and Irish all doing their own English thing. We all sound different though and if they wanted America they would only hire Americans. Due to population mass there are more of them but overall a fair balance. 5 English people at my old place actually which is half the team.

It was an honest question with zero undertone. I've noticed more and more young foreigners speak with American accents, especially Asians (Chinese kind) - doctors, nurses, students, etc. Obviously they are picking up that accent from the films/tv/speak devices they learn from, which I assumed was the reason for your Americanised spelling.

I'm almost disappointed it's a simple case of your device producing a squiggly red line, however, thank you, as I now know what the squiggly line is (just realised my device is Americanized too.)

[Gandalf]

@Gandalf - serious question, why do you spell like an American? I assume that's how you have to teach? If so, why have they adopted American over English?

I will answer this question. The reason I spell like an American is because if I spell the word favourite like this, then at this moment in time it has a squiggly red line underneath it which is so aesthetically displeasing that I just feel an automatic need to eradicate it. The system here on Saddo's is itself Americanized. Even Beanz does it a fair bit.

Nope, I have complete autonomy in how I teach and so whilst public school materials will often be American in style, I generally mix it up and will add a Mum and a flat and lift or what have you and point out spelling differentials. If anything I find a lot of young people prefer British English. They like the sound having experienced years of nasal audio and exaggerated intonation in the American style. A lot of materials these days incorporate a wider range of intonations though. Many youngsters are into films or music and like the romantic notion of what constitutes being English which in reality has of course become something of a myth. Thus trips to Europe or London end up being 'Huh?' Oh well.

Then again some will prefer the American style as their intent is to work for a US firm here or study in north America. My wife says working for US firms is generally a bit naff though. They don't treat people very well. On the whole though you get plenty of Aussies and Canadians and Brits and Irish all doing their own English thing. We all sound different though and if they wanted America they would only hire Americans. Due to population mass there are more of them but overall a fair balance. 5 English people at my old place actually which is half the team.

It was an honest question with zero undertone. I've noticed more and more young foreigners speak with American accents, especially Asians (Chinese kind) - doctors, nurses, students, etc. Obviously they are picking up that accent from the films/tv/speak devices they learn from, which I assumed was the reason for your Americanised spelling.

I'm almost disappointed it's a simple case of your device producing a squiggly red line, however, thank you, as I now know what the squiggly line is (just realised my device is Americanized too.)

It depends on where they come from too. The Philippines for example is full of American influence. Out here you do get a range. If they have studied overseas in America for a year or whatever then an accent will be there. I am not into the squeaky rising intonation littered with time fill 'likes'. Personally I never use time fillers. I prefer to pause and get my words out in a dignified manner. I had a guy last year who had wonderful English diction, a drama stutent, had never been to the UK but was an Anglophile. Cool chap.

Most Koreans don't have much of a foreign accent. In fact the main thing I tell them is that they need to enunciate well but it does not need to ape a particular form as basically there are so many and the main thing is being clear in your diction. My wife sounds pretty British due to the influence of my stronger consonants. My diction in a second language gets praised but you can tell with some things I struggle with the tongue position a little. For instance the inbetween l and r which is awkward for a Brit.

[Beanz]

@Gandalf - serious question, why do you spell like an American? I assume that's how you have to teach? If so, why have they adopted American over English?

I will answer this question. The reason I spell like an American is because if I spell the word favourite like this, then at this moment in time it has a squiggly red line underneath it which is so aesthetically displeasing that I just feel an automatic need to eradicate it. The system here on Saddo's is itself Americanized. Even Beanz does it a fair bit.

Nope, I have complete autonomy in how I teach and so whilst public school materials will often be American in style, I generally mix it up and will add a Mum and a flat and lift or what have you and point out spelling differentials. If anything I find a lot of young people prefer British English. They like the sound having experienced years of nasal audio and exaggerated intonation in the American style. A lot of materials these days incorporate a wider range of intonations though. Many youngsters are into films or music and like the romantic notion of what constitutes being English which in reality has of course become something of a myth. Thus trips to Europe or London end up being 'Huh?' Oh well.

Then again some will prefer the American style as their intent is to work for a US firm here or study in north America. My wife says working for US firms is generally a bit naff though. They don't treat people very well. On the whole though you get plenty of Aussies and Canadians and Brits and Irish all doing their own English thing. We all sound different though and if they wanted America they would only hire Americans. Due to population mass there are more of them but overall a fair balance. 5 English people at my old place actually which is half the team.

It was an honest question with zero undertone. I've noticed more and more young foreigners speak with American accents, especially Asians (Chinese kind) - doctors, nurses, students, etc. Obviously they are picking up that accent from the films/tv/speak devices they learn from, which I assumed was the reason for your Americanised spelling.

I'm almost disappointed it's a simple case of your device producing a squiggly red line, however, thank you, as I now know what the squiggly line is (just realised my device is Americanized too.)

When I worked in Milan for a anti-racist socialist group in the early nineties i was really impressed by the English spoken by volunteers of all ages. They all spoke with American accents though and really strong ones. It was because of the Exchange program they had with American schools, and so kids returning spoke English with a Californian accent, which did seem weird . My Italian was terrible though and I have forgotten all of it thru lack of use. My neighbour now is Italian and I have to speak to him in English because I am obviously a racist on weekends. Chinese lady on the other side who obviously i just pretend is white when she pops in for a cuppa

[Kirkland Laing]

@Gandalf - serious question, why do you spell like an American? I assume that's how you have to teach? If so, why have they adopted American over English?

I will answer this question. The reason I spell like an American is because if I spell the word favourite like this, then at this moment in time it has a squiggly red line underneath it which is so aesthetically displeasing that I just feel an automatic need to eradicate it. The system here on Saddo's is itself Americanized. Even Beanz does it a fair bit.

Nope, I have complete autonomy in how I teach and so whilst public school materials will often be American in style, I generally mix it up and will add a Mum and a flat and lift or what have you and point out spelling differentials. If anything I find a lot of young people prefer British English. They like the sound having experienced years of nasal audio and exaggerated intonation in the American style. A lot of materials these days incorporate a wider range of intonations though. Many youngsters are into films or music and like the romantic notion of what constitutes being English which in reality has of course become something of a myth. Thus trips to Europe or London end up being 'Huh?' Oh well.

Then again some will prefer the American style as their intent is to work for a US firm here or study in north America. My wife says working for US firms is generally a bit naff though. They don't treat people very well. On the whole though you get plenty of Aussies and Canadians and Brits and Irish all doing their own English thing. We all sound different though and if they wanted America they would only hire Americans. Due to population mass there are more of them but overall a fair balance. 5 English people at my old place actually which is half the team.

It was an honest question with zero undertone. I've noticed more and more young foreigners speak with American accents, especially Asians (Chinese kind) - doctors, nurses, students, etc. Obviously they are picking up that accent from the films/tv/speak devices they learn from, which I assumed was the reason for your Americanised spelling.

I'm almost disappointed it's a simple case of your device producing a squiggly red line, however, thank you, as I now know what the squiggly line is (just realised my device is Americanized too.)

Back when I was working in a backpacker hotel in Athens we'd get loads of Scandanavian teenagers turning up with distinctive American accents. Like you'd go in the bar and be talking to some girl with a strong southern accent and ask her what state she was from and she'd say Öreboro. Turns out loads of Vietnam draft dodgers claimed asylum in Scandanavian countries and became English teachers. Amazing how accents travel.