Not GGG bashing but...

[Fenster]

Comparing individual performances across eras is impossible, nothing but fantasy. How can we determine one fighter was REALISTICALLY tougher to beat than an other? We can't.

[Fenster]

Hold up! What! What's happening? Why you getting annoyed, I haven't moved goal posts, I explained we're getting caught on semantics/interpretations.

I didn't even know it was a competition, I merely offered some thoughts and observations.

Blimey

[TitoFan]

I guess we’ll all just have to agree to disagree about Canelo and whether he’s over or underrated. I’ll reiterate my own reasons for believing that Canelo if anything, is vastly overrated. But THIS time, I’ll use language less conducive to being dismissed as just anti-Canelo bias for “other reasons.”


1. His loss to Mayweather and yes… I will continue to use this as a reason. The way he lost to Mayweather only served to point out the fact that he (Canelo) had no business in the same ring. It was a shutout pitched by the naturally smaller man.
2. His victory over Amir Khan only reinforced the fact that a fast, agile boxer can and did run rings around Canelo. Canelo’s only hope was to land the only shot needed, and that he did. Amir just ran out of real estate to cover.
3. The vast majority of Canelo’s career, which spans his first 30 or some fights, was carefully crafted. All the fights were in Mexico against non-descript opposition. I have a strong personal aversion to record-bloating in that fashion.
4. Canelo has benefitted from scores of dodgy decision in the friendly confines of Vegas. It’s extremely telling that the first time he fights outside his comfort zone, it was against Fielding, with Canelo looking to pick off the weakest champion available. No better illustration about the dodgy judging than CJ Ross’s inexplicable card for the Mayweather fight.
5. The aforementioned reach for Fielding’s trinket. In the old days, if you wanted to go up a weight division, you did so naturally and not looking for the weakest link to grab the trinket.
6. Canelo only fought Golovkin after much “hemming and hawing” about not being ready to fight at 160. Yet he jumped to 170 to fight JCC Jr. The fight happened only after public pressure mounted to the point where it was unavoidable.
7. Canelo has always played games with weight, more so than the average fighter. He has perfected the use of catchweights, and always does whatever is necessary to ensure he’s got a huge weight advantage over his opponent on fight night.
8. He is a convicted drug cheat. The fact that he got a “slap on the wrist” over his transgressions is beside the point. He’s a drug cheat.


By contrast, the Mexican fighters I was a big fan of (MAB, JMM, Finito) did little, if any, of those things. Surely the JMM-Mayweather fight will be brought up… but in this fight Mayweather was the much bigger man. JMM had no business going up to challenge Floyd at his own weight. But none were embarrassed by p4p fighters they loudly clamored to face. None of them began their career with 30 fights…. all in Mexico….. all against handpicked cab drivers. None of them had the benefit of shady judges in their corner in big fights. None of them went fishing for easy prey in a higher weight division, just for the sake of a damn, worthless belt. When they DID go up in weight (those that did), they did so naturally, and after having dominated their own weight. None of them used catchweights. None of them used weight divisions like yo-yo’s in search of easy prey and more trinkets. None was a drug cheat. Marquez was suspected maybe… but never convicted as such. In short…. none of them were a Hollywood-scripted production with all the bells and whistles since Day One.

So my “anti-Mexican bias” goes out the window once and for all (if there was any remaining doubt). I don’t like Canelo, not because he’s Mexican. I don’t like Canelo because his career has been carefully scripted and constructed since Day One. I’ve been saying as much for years now.

He’s overrated.

[powerpuncher]

I guess we’ll all just have to agree to disagree about Canelo and whether he’s over or underrated. I’ll reiterate my own reasons for believing that Canelo if anything, is vastly overrated. But THIS time, I’ll use language less conducive to being dismissed as just anti-Canelo bias for “other reasons.”


1. His loss to Mayweather and yes… I will continue to use this as a reason. The way he lost to Mayweather only served to point out the fact that he (Canelo) had no business in the same ring. It was a shutout pitched by the naturally smaller man.
2. His victory over Amir Khan only reinforced the fact that a fast, agile boxer can and did run rings around Canelo. Canelo’s only hope was to land the only shot needed, and that he did. Amir just ran out of real estate to cover.
3. The vast majority of Canelo’s career, which spans his first 30 or some fights, was carefully crafted. All the fights were in Mexico against non-descript opposition. I have a strong personal aversion to record-bloating in that fashion.
4. Canelo has benefitted from scores of dodgy decision in the friendly confines of Vegas. It’s extremely telling that the first time he fights outside his comfort zone, it was against Fielding, with Canelo looking to pick off the weakest champion available. No better illustration about the dodgy judging than CJ Ross’s inexplicable card for the Mayweather fight.
5. The aforementioned reach for Fielding’s trinket. In the old days, if you wanted to go up a weight division, you did so naturally and not looking for the weakest link to grab the trinket.
6. Canelo only fought Golovkin after much “hemming and hawing” about not being ready to fight at 160. Yet he jumped to 170 to fight JCC Jr. The fight happened only after public pressure mounted to the point where it was unavoidable.
7. Canelo has always played games with weight, more so than the average fighter. He has perfected the use of catchweights, and always does whatever is necessary to ensure he’s got a huge weight advantage over his opponent on fight night.
8. He is a convicted drug cheat. The fact that he got a “slap on the wrist” over his transgressions is beside the point. He’s a drug cheat.


By contrast, the Mexican fighters I was a big fan of (MAB, JMM, Finito) did little, if any, of those things. Surely the JMM-Mayweather fight will be brought up… but in this fight Mayweather was the much bigger man. JMM had no business going up to challenge Floyd at his own weight. But none were embarrassed by p4p fighters they loudly clamored to face. None of them began their career with 30 fights…. all in Mexico….. all against handpicked cab drivers. None of them had the benefit of shady judges in their corner in big fights. None of them went fishing for easy prey in a higher weight division, just for the sake of a damn, worthless belt. When they DID go up in weight (those that did), they did so naturally, and after having dominated their own weight. None of them used catchweights. None of them used weight divisions like yo-yo’s in search of easy prey and more trinkets. None was a drug cheat. Marquez was suspected maybe… but never convicted as such. In short…. none of them were a Hollywood-scripted production with all the bells and whistles since Day One.

So my “anti-Mexican bias” goes out the window once and for all (if there was any remaining doubt). I don’t like Canelo, not because he’s Mexican. I don’t like Canelo because his career has been carefully scripted and constructed since Day One. I’ve been saying as much for years now.

He’s overrated.

It’s almost impossible to be underrated while at the same time being the biggest money maker in the sport. Nobody in boxing gets a bigger push. If you think he’s underrated, you must think that he is one of the greatest of all time because from what I see, he is rated very highly by most “experts.” Much more highly than I think he has proven to be.

[TitoFan]

I guess we’ll all just have to agree to disagree about Canelo and whether he’s over or underrated. I’ll reiterate my own reasons for believing that Canelo if anything, is vastly overrated. But THIS time, I’ll use language less conducive to being dismissed as just anti-Canelo bias for “other reasons.”


1. His loss to Mayweather and yes… I will continue to use this as a reason. The way he lost to Mayweather only served to point out the fact that he (Canelo) had no business in the same ring. It was a shutout pitched by the naturally smaller man.
2. His victory over Amir Khan only reinforced the fact that a fast, agile boxer can and did run rings around Canelo. Canelo’s only hope was to land the only shot needed, and that he did. Amir just ran out of real estate to cover.
3. The vast majority of Canelo’s career, which spans his first 30 or some fights, was carefully crafted. All the fights were in Mexico against non-descript opposition. I have a strong personal aversion to record-bloating in that fashion.
4. Canelo has benefitted from scores of dodgy decision in the friendly confines of Vegas. It’s extremely telling that the first time he fights outside his comfort zone, it was against Fielding, with Canelo looking to pick off the weakest champion available. No better illustration about the dodgy judging than CJ Ross’s inexplicable card for the Mayweather fight.
5. The aforementioned reach for Fielding’s trinket. In the old days, if you wanted to go up a weight division, you did so naturally and not looking for the weakest link to grab the trinket.
6. Canelo only fought Golovkin after much “hemming and hawing” about not being ready to fight at 160. Yet he jumped to 170 to fight JCC Jr. The fight happened only after public pressure mounted to the point where it was unavoidable.
7. Canelo has always played games with weight, more so than the average fighter. He has perfected the use of catchweights, and always does whatever is necessary to ensure he’s got a huge weight advantage over his opponent on fight night.
8. He is a convicted drug cheat. The fact that he got a “slap on the wrist” over his transgressions is beside the point. He’s a drug cheat.


By contrast, the Mexican fighters I was a big fan of (MAB, JMM, Finito) did little, if any, of those things. Surely the JMM-Mayweather fight will be brought up… but in this fight Mayweather was the much bigger man. JMM had no business going up to challenge Floyd at his own weight. But none were embarrassed by p4p fighters they loudly clamored to face. None of them began their career with 30 fights…. all in Mexico….. all against handpicked cab drivers. None of them had the benefit of shady judges in their corner in big fights. None of them went fishing for easy prey in a higher weight division, just for the sake of a damn, worthless belt. When they DID go up in weight (those that did), they did so naturally, and after having dominated their own weight. None of them used catchweights. None of them used weight divisions like yo-yo’s in search of easy prey and more trinkets. None was a drug cheat. Marquez was suspected maybe… but never convicted as such. In short…. none of them were a Hollywood-scripted production with all the bells and whistles since Day One.

So my “anti-Mexican bias” goes out the window once and for all (if there was any remaining doubt). I don’t like Canelo, not because he’s Mexican. I don’t like Canelo because his career has been carefully scripted and constructed since Day One. I’ve been saying as much for years now.

He’s overrated.

It’s almost impossible to be underrated while at the same time being the biggest money maker in the sport. Nobody in boxing gets a bigger push. If you think he’s underrated, you must think that he is one of the greatest of all time because from what I see, he is rated very highly by most “experts.” Much more highly than I think he has proven to be.

The strategy was clear from the get-go and it worked to perfection. Make Canelo a "star"..... then pick and choose your opponents with the "A side" weight behind contractual demands. Pure Hollywood.

[Gandalf]

I guess we’ll all just have to agree to disagree about Canelo and whether he’s over or underrated. I’ll reiterate my own reasons for believing that Canelo if anything, is vastly overrated. But THIS time, I’ll use language less conducive to being dismissed as just anti-Canelo bias for “other reasons.”


1. His loss to Mayweather and yes… I will continue to use this as a reason. The way he lost to Mayweather only served to point out the fact that he (Canelo) had no business in the same ring. It was a shutout pitched by the naturally smaller man.
2. His victory over Amir Khan only reinforced the fact that a fast, agile boxer can and did run rings around Canelo. Canelo’s only hope was to land the only shot needed, and that he did. Amir just ran out of real estate to cover.
3. The vast majority of Canelo’s career, which spans his first 30 or some fights, was carefully crafted. All the fights were in Mexico against non-descript opposition. I have a strong personal aversion to record-bloating in that fashion.
4. Canelo has benefitted from scores of dodgy decision in the friendly confines of Vegas. It’s extremely telling that the first time he fights outside his comfort zone, it was against Fielding, with Canelo looking to pick off the weakest champion available. No better illustration about the dodgy judging than CJ Ross’s inexplicable card for the Mayweather fight.
5. The aforementioned reach for Fielding’s trinket. In the old days, if you wanted to go up a weight division, you did so naturally and not looking for the weakest link to grab the trinket.
6. Canelo only fought Golovkin after much “hemming and hawing” about not being ready to fight at 160. Yet he jumped to 170 to fight JCC Jr. The fight happened only after public pressure mounted to the point where it was unavoidable.
7. Canelo has always played games with weight, more so than the average fighter. He has perfected the use of catchweights, and always does whatever is necessary to ensure he’s got a huge weight advantage over his opponent on fight night.
8. He is a convicted drug cheat. The fact that he got a “slap on the wrist” over his transgressions is beside the point. He’s a drug cheat.


By contrast, the Mexican fighters I was a big fan of (MAB, JMM, Finito) did little, if any, of those things. Surely the JMM-Mayweather fight will be brought up… but in this fight Mayweather was the much bigger man. JMM had no business going up to challenge Floyd at his own weight. But none were embarrassed by p4p fighters they loudly clamored to face. None of them began their career with 30 fights…. all in Mexico….. all against handpicked cab drivers. None of them had the benefit of shady judges in their corner in big fights. None of them went fishing for easy prey in a higher weight division, just for the sake of a damn, worthless belt. When they DID go up in weight (those that did), they did so naturally, and after having dominated their own weight. None of them used catchweights. None of them used weight divisions like yo-yo’s in search of easy prey and more trinkets. None was a drug cheat. Marquez was suspected maybe… but never convicted as such. In short…. none of them were a Hollywood-scripted production with all the bells and whistles since Day One.

So my “anti-Mexican bias” goes out the window once and for all (if there was any remaining doubt). I don’t like Canelo, not because he’s Mexican. I don’t like Canelo because his career has been carefully scripted and constructed since Day One. I’ve been saying as much for years now.

He’s overrated.

It’s almost impossible to be underrated while at the same time being the biggest money maker in the sport. Nobody in boxing gets a bigger push. If you think he’s underrated, you must think that he is one of the greatest of all time because from what I see, he is rated very highly by most “experts.” Much more highly than I think he has proven to be.

The strategy was clear from the get-go and it worked to perfection. Make Canelo a "star"..... then pick and choose your opponents with the "A side" weight behind contractual demands. Pure Hollywood.

He is the Miley Cyrus of boxing. You have to put in the work, but are ultimately selected and pushed.

[powerpuncher]

Hold up! What! What's happening? Why you getting annoyed, I haven't moved goal posts, I explained we're getting caught on semantics/interpretations.

I didn't even know it was a competition, I merely offered some thoughts and observations.

Blimey

It’s not a competition. Like I said before, you are like those sports analysts who love to disagree to get ratings. That’s why I stopped watching them. It’s not interesting if I know they don’t believe what they are saying. I’m not angry just bored and know that you will never change your opinion with good solid evidence. Again, it’s not just this situation but what I have seen of you over a long period of time.

[Fenster]

Hold up! What! What's happening? Why you getting annoyed, I haven't moved goal posts, I explained we're getting caught on semantics/interpretations.

I didn't even know it was a competition, I merely offered some thoughts and observations.

Blimey

It’s not a competition. Like I said before, you are like those sports analysts who love to disagree to get ratings. That’s why I stopped watching them. It’s not interesting if I know they don’t believe what they are saying. I’m not angry just bored and know that you will never change your opinion with good solid evidence. Again, it’s not just this situation but what I have seen of you over a long period of time.

Opinions aren't evidence. And i've been polite saying we're struggling with interpretation, you ignore my points then tell me what I really think. I have no idea what your problem is.

Canelo has beaten over a dozen world-class fighters, all styles, champions, former champions, HOF fighters. I do not respect fans who strip fighters records down putting a negative spin on everything. It is childish. I have only stated Canelo is underrated by many fans, however, already noted it depends on where the bar is set. I don't believe fighters like Rocky Fielding and Alfonso Gomez are crap, scrubbs, bums, I respect them. The very fact fighters like Canelo can wipe the floor with them is because he's LEVELS above - elite!!!

Floyd?
Cotto?
Mosley?
Golovkin?
Jacobs?
Lara?
Trout?
Khan?
Vazquez?
Lopez?
Smith?
Angulo?
Kirkland?
Chavez Jr?
Cintron?
Rhodes?
N'Dou?
Baldomir?

Yeah, yeah, there's excuses for all his wins. They were past their best, robbed, "bums," catchweight, blah, blah, blah. Smoke and mirrors. If any fighter in the world went 9 wins / 9 losses with that opposition I'd give them big praise let alone 17 wins/1 loss/1 draw.