The Lonely NFL Thread (complete with tumbleweeds)

[TitoFan]

It’s not that issues don’t exist but Colin should just STFU and play ball. Let him start an activist group do address the countries issues. He does a poor job carrying the message is is actually creating more divide with his antics. Just use your star power to do good elsewhere Colin taking a knee looks foolish when you live a life of privilege

Colin's black, and he feels there is very much systemic racism in America, as evidenced by the many black men shootings by white cops. Seriously, why should he STFU? If he wasn't an (ex) NFL quarterback, would he then be allowed to speak? Yeah, maybe he should start an activist group but some of us just aren't built that way. Easy to say... not always easy to do. He "lives a life of privilege." Would it be better for him to just enjoy his good fortune and forget the trials and tribulations being suffered by many in his own race?

Nah. The guy's doing what he feels he can do, whether people like it or not. He got his punishment, so it's not like he got off easy. He's out of football... but he decided to throw that to the wayside in order to get his message across. Why should it matter that he's (was) a rich QB in the National Football League? I've heard this narrative a million times, and still have not heard a good answer to those questions.

[El Kabong]

You leave precious little wiggle room for debate, Lyle. So it's "let's not even talk about it, 'cause it's not a worthy cause or a real problem?" I'd hate to think that's how you really feel. No it's not 1960's Alabama all over again, and your mention of it unfortunately trashes whatever argument one may have that things are not well and could definitely improve. Why the perceived backlash, Lyle? It's an issue that isn't going to go away by itself. No... all cops aren't white. No... all citizens impacted by wrongful use of force aren't all black.

The thing about is, you know how I think about this. You know I know about the victim card played by a lot of blacks looking to ride the coattails of these incidents and cry "racism" to just about anything. Yet you agree when I talk like that... but you immediately disagree when I touch on some of the worthy points on the OTHER side. Why? We can't only agree when I'm totally on your side. Or maybe that's how these topics should be handled. I see both sides, and you know it. But I'm not going to excuse or sweep under the rug the many incidents where racist white cops have shot black men (and even women) in a blatant abuse of power because of their racist views. I don't care if the media covers this more than the "other" incidents, where I guess black racist cops shoot and kill white guys. If any of those came up, I'd be just as critical of those also.

It's not either/or for me. It's whatever is right and wrong. Racist cops shooting black guys is a bad thing (using Trump's vernacular). Why can't we just leave it at that?

Riots? I don't care about riots. Riots don't bring back young black men who have been executed by trigger-happy, unfit-for-the-job white cops. It's a problem whether anyone else sees it as a problem or not.

I'm not saying "let's not even talk about it" I'm 100% FOR talking about it...what I'm NOT for is a deliberate malicious skewing of the FACTS be it by law enforcement or by protesters and BLM activists. If we can't have an HONEST discussion then yeah no discussion at all suits me fine because what are we actually achieving? When Freddie Gray dies in police custody in Baltimore an investigation is definitely warranted but you know what isn't? RIOTS! And what really isn't warranted are local politicians saying they need to give "protesters" "room to destroy" words I use because they are the direct quotes of Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake. Now when a police shooting happens, justified or unjustified and it's reported on I guess we all had best just batten down the hatches and let folks loot and riot and burn the city down because lord help us all if we just discuss what actually happened and why.

Why the backlash? Well let's start with what Black Lives Matter actually wants, what they themselves have as their agenda:

Demands
End the war on black people - seeks to resolve:

"the criminalization and dehumanization of Black youth across all areas of society";
capital punishment;
money bail and court surcharges in court proceedings;
"use of past criminal history to determine eligibility for housing, education, licenses, voting, loans, employment, and other services";
"the war on Black immigrants including the repeal of the 1996 crime and immigration bills";
"the war on Black trans, queer and gender nonconforming people";
"the mass surveillance of Black communities";
"the militarization of law enforcement";
"the privatization of police, prisons, jails, probation, parole, food, phone and all other criminal justice related services"; and
"public jails, detention centers, youth facilities and prisons" in their present conditions.

Reparations for the:
"systemic denial of access to high quality educational opportunities in the form of full and free access for all Black people";
"continued divestment from, discrimination toward and exploitation of our communities in the form of a guaranteed minimum livable income for all Black people";
"wealth extracted from" the black communities "through environmental racism, slavery, food apartheid, housing discrimination and racialized capitalism in the form of corporate and government reparations";
"cultural and educational exploitation, erasure, and extraction" in the form of, among other things, "public school curriculums that critically examine the political, economic, and social impacts of colonialism and slavery"; and
the demand the state and federal levels require "the United States to acknowledge the lasting impacts of slavery, establish and execute a plan to address those impacts".

Invest-Divest:
Reallocation of federal, state, and local government funds from "policing and incarceration to long-term strategies for education, restorative justice services, and employment programs."
The decriminalization, immediate release, record expungement, and reparations for the disparaging effects of both the "war on drugs" and "the criminalization of prostitution" on black communities.
"Real, meaningful, and equitable universal healthcare"
A constitutionally protected right to a "fully-funded education"
Divestment from the "use of fossil fuels and investment in community-based sustainable energy solutions."
Cuts to military expenditures and a reallocation of those funds to "infrastructure and community well-being"

Economic Justice:
Redistribution of wealth through a "progressive restructuring of tax codes at the local, state, and federal levels."
Employment programs that specifically target the "most marginalized Black people" in order to promote economic equality.
"A right to restored land, clean air, clean water and housing and an end to the exploitative privatizaiton of natural resources."
Right for workers to organize in both the public and private sector.
Restoration of the Glass-Steagall Act.
"An end to the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and a renegotiation of all trade agreements" with an increased focus on the interests of workers and communities.
Increased support for "the development of cooperative or social economy networks."
"Financial support of Black alternative institutions."
Increased protection for workers in poorly regulated industries.

Community Control:
Implementation of "democratic community control of local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies."
"End to the privatization of education."
Communal participation in "budgeting at the local state and federal level."

Political Power:
"End to the criminalization of Black political activity."
Termination of super PACs and the implementation of "public financing of elections."
Establishment of "full-access guarantees, and protections of the right to vote for all people."
"Full-access to technology" through the implementation of "net-neutrality and universal access to internet."
"Protection and increased funding for Black institutions."

[El Kabong]

"the criminalization and dehumanization of Black youth across all areas of society"; - Is that actually a thing?
capital punishment; - Why?
money bail and court surcharges in court proceedings; - the courts don't pay for themselves
"use of past criminal history to determine eligibility for housing, education, licenses, voting, loans, employment, and other services"; - I could come up with several hypotheticals for why that's a horrible idea
"the war on Black immigrants including the repeal of the 1996 crime and immigration bills"; - Why would black people willingly come to such a racist nation? Also President Trump just did Criminal Justice Reform and yet the praise for him from BLM
"the war on Black trans, queer and gender nonconforming people"; - there's a war on them? From who?

"the mass surveillance of Black communities";
"the militarization of law enforcement";
"the privatization of police, prisons, jails, probation, parole, food, phone and all other criminal justice related services"; and
"public jails, detention centers, youth facilities and prisons" in their present conditions. .....I can get behind THESE specifically, in general, for society as a whole...but if there's illegal immigration and there are cartels ALLOWED to do their business in the US then the police need all the weapons at their disposal, but shut the border and maybe we don't have such an issue.

[El Kabong]

Reparations for the:
"systemic denial of access to high quality educational opportunities in the form of full and free access for all Black people"; - how is that quantified? I mean did it happen? Sure. How is it quantified and where does the money come from?
"continued divestment from, discrimination toward and exploitation of our communities in the form of a guaranteed minimum livable income for all Black people"; - So Communism? No thank you.
"wealth extracted from" the black communities "through environmental racism, slavery, food apartheid, housing discrimination and racialized capitalism in the form of corporate and government reparations"; - So again Communism no thanks AND food apartheid? environmental racism? What are those?
"cultural and educational exploitation, erasure, and extraction" in the form of, among other things, "public school curriculums that critically examine the political, economic, and social impacts of colonialism and slavery"; and
the demand the state and federal levels require "the United States to acknowledge the lasting impacts of slavery, establish and execute a plan to address those impacts". - OK so teach everyone white people bad...sorry gonna have to disagree with that just on the whole Content of Character > Skin Color. Slavery which was abolished 154 years ago is still an issue today? Is there a 175 year old out there I missed?

Invest-Divest:
Reallocation of federal, state, and local government funds from "policing and incarceration to long-term strategies for education, restorative justice services, and employment programs." - What is "restorative justice services"?
The decriminalization, immediate release, record expungement, and reparations for the disparaging effects of both the "war on drugs" and "the criminalization of prostitution" on black communities. - I agree on war on drugs expungment, but sorry prostitution encourages human and child trafficking so that's a no from me.
"Real, meaningful, and equitable universal healthcare" - Yes because only white people have healthcare?
A constitutionally protected right to a "fully-funded education" - Then pass an Amendment to the Constitution, that's the ONLY way it's "Constitutionally protected"...also public schools (and I graduated from them) used to be a great thing a great source of pride, but now? They are absolute GARBAGE and that's either on purpose or just a happy coincidence due to who is going to the schools or who is running the schools.
Divestment from the "use of fossil fuels and investment in community-based sustainable energy solutions." - No thank you
Cuts to military expenditures and a reallocation of those funds to "infrastructure and community well-being" - Yeah that's a state and local issue not a federal one

[El Kabong]

Economic Justice:
Redistribution of wealth through a "progressive restructuring of tax codes at the local, state, and federal levels." - So Communism....we getting a clear picture of this group yet?
Employment programs that specifically target the "most marginalized Black people" in order to promote economic equality. - So Affirmative Action then
"A right to restored land, clean air, clean water and housing and an end to the exploitative privatization of natural resources." - Those aren't rights, again Amend the Constitution if that's what you want. What about the Federalization of public land? The Government owns more than anyone else.
Right for workers to organize in both the public and private sector. - We have a Department of Labor, why are Unions necessary?
Restoration of the Glass-Steagall Act. - Yes because everything became racist after that was repealed
"An end to the Trans-Pacific Partnership, and a renegotiation of all trade agreements" with an increased focus on the interests of workers and communities. - Donald Trump has actually done this and again
Increased support for "the development of cooperative or social economy networks." - So Communism
"Financial support of Black alternative institutions." - What does that even mean?
Increased protection for workers in poorly regulated industries. - Industries like ______?

Community Control:
Implementation of "democratic community control of local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies." - So Police Academy 4 Citizens on Patrol?
"End to the privatization of education." - If the state is so racist why wouldn't you want a chance to escape indoctrination from it?
Communal participation in "budgeting at the local state and federal level." - Communism again?

Political Power:
"End to the criminalization of Black political activity." - I see nobody stopping BLM even when they riot
Termination of super PACs and the implementation of "public financing of elections." - I might could agree with that
Establishment of "full-access guarantees, and protections of the right to vote for all people." - No thank you legal citizens over age of 18 no felons only
"Full-access to technology" through the implementation of "net-neutrality and universal access to internet." - That's not what net neutrality does
"Protection and increased funding for Black institutions." - Race based funding? Ooooh sounds like fun.




And those are the things Colin Kaepernick has aligned himself with, so I'm sorry if I don't buy into this idea that he wants to actually solve a damn thing and as you can see there's precious little on their demands list I agree with and a great deal of what is on this list is outright Communism. I don't think there's anything positive that will ever come from Communism.

[El Kabong]

I don't wish to steer this thread into the political quagmire many other threads go to, I merely wished to explain to you @TitoFan why Kaepernick draws my ire. I find him and the BLM disingenuous and I believe they have ulterior motives namely COMMUNISM of which I am wholeheartedly against you know due to it's tendency to cause for the deaths of multiple millions of people during peacetime with no famine, pestilence, or plague.

Yes there's a discussion to be had in regards to the excessive use of force by police, but Kaepernick and BLM aren't the folks to hold that conversation with. Salute them for drawing attention to a cause, but their "solutions" would only exacerbate things.

[Master]

That sounds like socialism to me.

[TitoFan]

I don't wish to steer this thread into the political quagmire many other threads go to, I merely wished to explain to you @TitoFan why Kaepernick draws my ire. I find him and the BLM disingenuous and I believe they have ulterior motives namely COMMUNISM of which I am wholeheartedly against you know due to it's tendency to cause for the deaths of multiple millions of people during peacetime with no famine, pestilence, or plague.

Yes there's a discussion to be had in regards to the excessive use of force by police, but Kaepernick and BLM aren't the folks to hold that conversation with. Salute them for drawing attention to a cause, but their "solutions" would only exacerbate things.

Again, I'll have to claim to be uninformed about what Colin actually says. I thought he was clear from the very beginning why he was protesting, and it all had to do with the white cop/black man shooting crisis in the streets. I haven't seen Colin attaching himself to BLM, but maybe the other way around. That's a fine line, but important nonetheless.

I DON'T believe Colin himself has ulterior motives of any type, most certainly not communism. I frankly don't know where you got that. I DO praise him for drawing attention to a cause, as you said.... but haven't exactly heard of him suggesting any solutions. It's important to me to keep to what's in front of me. I'm not going to simply lump Colin and BLM extremists together because they all happen to be black and indignant over the crisis I've already mentioned.

[TitoFan]

You've obviously gone to great lengths to research (I'm assuming) and express here the entire agenda of the BLM movement. Assuming you're accurate about that (and I'm not implying you're not), that's pretty commendable on your part.

Needless to say, you KNOW I've been against reparations from the very beginning. I like to focus forward, not backwards. If anything, I've been consistent in my opinions.

THAT, in a nutshell, would summarize how I feel about the whole black-white issue and anything the BLM movement would have to say.

I'm all for justice across the board. Not just lip service to the whole racist cop issue..... but actual, concrete, measurable actions.

I see you've commented on each individual BLM "demand" and I can see myself agreeing with many of your comments.

In short, I don't condone nor support any demand that seeks to go above and beyond merely trying to establish an even playing field for the average black citizen, without talk of retribution/reparations for things of the past.

Let's move forward... and quit trampling all over the past. In Spanish we say quit stirring the shit, lest it begin to stink.



A lot of items on that list are "pie-in-the-sky" types of things like someone sat down to make a list and at some point added things while shrugging and saying... "why not?".

But let me pick out one specifically related to the shooting problem I've been talking about.... along with your response.

"the criminalization and dehumanization of Black youth across all areas of society"; - Is that actually a thing?

To answer your question... yes.
Maybe not across ALL areas of society.... but certainly in enough big city police departments to the point where they not only abuse their power, but also protect each other from any accountability for blatantly racist actions against black males.

You know it's a problem... I know it's a problem... everybody knows it's a problem. But no one does a damn thing about it. I've yet to see mandatory body cams across all police forces.

Dashcams have already captured extremely disturbing videos of some of these tragedies. If cops continue doing this knowing there are dashcams..... imagine what goes on when they know no one's watching and there are no witnesses.

How do you eliminate or at least reduce the "criminalization and dehumanization of black youth"?

You weed out the bad cops and throw them the hell off the force. You beef up entrance requirements to the police force. You redouble your training on confrontational situations and the use of deadly force. You enforce mandatory body cams on EVERY SINGLE COP. You combat this fucking fraternity where they all cover each other's asses. You put excellent leadership on these police forces, not some hateful bastard with racism oozing out of his pores. You redouble the use of non-lethal, disabling methods, which exist but are ignored by some of these assholes. You amp up the punishment for these needless shootings and allow the full weight of the law to come down on these murderers.

THAT'S how you attack a problem if you really want to.

[El Kabong]

I know enough to understand the issue of excessive use of force from police against young black men is not something that happens in a vacuum. There's no easy fix, there's no simple solution, and there's no 1 root cause either. Oftentimes the police have not covered themselves in glory, but likewise, there are policemen out there who just want to make it through the day and they put up with major bullshit on the regular.

I believe fatherlessness and lack of a positive male role model is a huge issue in several communities which show a disproportionate level of criminal activity. And hell we can discuss the WHY's and HOW's of fatherlessness and lack of positive male role models for eons! Could be the 'War on Drugs' has seen many nonviolent people locked up, could be the 'War on Poverty' incentivized not getting married and just pumping out babies, could be the Sexual Revolution made premarital sex less of a taboo, could be that certain public schools are absolute shitholes where nobody is able to learn anything they're just trying to survive.


All those things can and should be discussed, as should militarization of the police force but the agenda put forth by Colin Kaepernick and BLM is a lot more than just "end police killings".....also SOME uses of force and even uses of lethal force are absolutely justified. A fellow I went to high school with was killed by the police and I've got to say the guy EARNED it...you cannot bodyslam a policewoman, show no effects of being tazered by that officer and then expect to not receive live rounds. The guy was always a nice person to me, I never had issue 1 with him or he with me and yeah it's sad he left the world with so much life left to live. I wonder had a MALE officer been first on the scene would the guy still be alive? That's also an issue to discuss.....women I'm sure will perceive life threatening events differently than men.

There is an idea among certain people that officers can "shoot to wound/maim" and that's just wrong a gun is a deadly weapon and when it is drawn the holder of that weapon should be thinking "once I pull this trigger someone WILL die" not COULD die, not MIGHT die, WILL die. So education in what law enforcement officers face is also something to think about.


It frustrates me so much that there's a wholehearted push for Communism under the guise of "these cops are evil and they are murdering young black men" .....it's infuriating to me because it glosses over the real issue to promote the worst bullshit possible which is Communism and if you're really worried about police violence, Communism ain't the route you want to go.

My fixes
1. 2 parent households & more unified communities who watch after youthful members of their community regardless of color
2. education (of civilians and police)
3. jobs, people with good jobs don't typically commit violent crimes or commit to a life of crime
4. more controlled interactions between police and civilians. more situations in day to day life where police aren't seen as the enemy and don't negatively impact the groups they're supposed to 'protect & serve'