Is it wrong to decry the decline of world leadership quality?

[Gandalf]

That was 1961, now 1962:

"In South Vietnam, the U.S. had 11,000 'advisers', 300 aircraft, 120 helicopters, heavy weapons, pilots flying combat missions, defoliants, and napalm.<sup>[46]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962_in_the_Vietnam_War</sup>

[Gandalf]

1963: "The number of U.S. soldiers in South Vietnam rose to more than 16,000 by year's end with 122 combat deaths in just that year."

Looked to be getting kind of messy and over a 3 year period. Then when it had gone wrong by supporting a corrupt leader, they had a coup which led to his bloody death. All endorsed by Saint Kennedy.

He is probably not in heaven.

[Gandalf]

So, when Lyle suggests that Trump has handled North Korea better, he kind of has a point there.

[TitoFan]

So, when Lyle suggests that Trump has handled North Korea better, he kind of has a point there.

Jong Un plays Trump like a yo-yo, Miles. He's gotten all the concessions from Trump no one's ever given him, and he's still dangling the prospect of nuclear buildup as the carrot for even more concessions.

He and his cohorts are laughing their asses off.

How's that verification process going, BTW? Oh right....... it isn't.

But wtf am I explaining this to you for. You've drunken the Kool-Aid long ago, and the narrative never changes.

[Gandalf]

So, when Lyle suggests that Trump has handled North Korea better, he kind of has a point there.

Jong Un plays Trump like a yo-yo, Miles. He's gotten all the concessions from Trump no one's ever given him, and he's still dangling the prospect of nuclear buildup as the carrot for even more concessions.

He and his cohorts are laughing their asses off.

How's that verification process going, BTW? Oh right....... it isn't.

But wtf am I explaining this to you for. You've drunken the Kool-Aid long ago, and the narrative never changes.

But are there troops in the country building up year by year with more NK dead and more US troops dead? No.

I am drinking coffee. Clears the mind.

[walrus]

1963: "The number of U.S. soldiers in South Vietnam rose to more than 16,000 by year's end with 122 combat deaths in just that year."

Looked to be getting kind of messy and over a 3 year period. Then when it had gone wrong by supporting a corrupt leader, they had a coup which led to his bloody death. All endorsed by Saint Kennedy.

He is probably not in heaven.

Well 63 reports were out he wanted to pull out. Remember Eisenhower started involvement in Vietnam. Now I will say your points are valid miles, at the Eisenhower Kennedy period the CIA was chomping at the bit to get Vietnam but apparently Kennedy wanted to pull the plug leading to the conspiracy thing that the cia was involved in Kennedy’s killing.

80% of the Kennedy thing was media created. They couldn’t get enough. They did everything to show him in a positive light. Including putting down cameras when he was running around with the other babes. Damn the FBI had him by the balls. Now I like Kennedy I just look at it realistically. Lincoln is, after Washington my favorite president but Lincoln pretty much took a big steaming dump on the constitution, we can overlook that stuff.

[Gandalf]

1963: "The number of U.S. soldiers in South Vietnam rose to more than 16,000 by year's end with 122 combat deaths in just that year."

Looked to be getting kind of messy and over a 3 year period. Then when it had gone wrong by supporting a corrupt leader, they had a coup which led to his bloody death. All endorsed by Saint Kennedy.

He is probably not in heaven.

Well 63 reports were out he wanted to pull out. Remember Eisenhower started involvement in Vietnam. Now I will say your points are valid miles, at the Eisenhower Kennedy period the CIA was chomping at the bit to get Vietnam but apparently Kennedy wanted to pull the plug leading to the conspiracy thing that the cia was involved in Kennedy’s killing.

80% of the Kennedy thing was media created. They couldn’t get enough. They did everything to show him in a positive light. Including putting down cameras when he was running around with the other babes. Damn the FBI had him by the balls. Now I like Kennedy I just look at it realistically. Lincoln is, after Washington my favorite president but Lincoln pretty much took a big steaming dump on the constitution, we can overlook that stuff.

Yes, but I was just pointing out that Tito was wrong to suggest I was wrong, when the history is there is black and white and even color. I have read up a bit on Vietnam and of course watched that fantastic long version of the 10 part documentary series. A very complicated mess of a conflict, but it is factually true that Kennedy massively ramped it all up in the space of 3 years and then ordered a coup which led to more bloodshed. Why support a corrupt man in the first place and considering the result and how it was a civil war, he was not exactly Mr Peace or trying to solve the worlds problems in a decent way. He could be a plonker and mess up like everyone else seems to.

Plus with his personal failings and according to Hersch very odd habit of smuggling in women to the White House, just not a very good man. Plus if his wife was up to the same stuff as rumored it does not fit with my own values.

[walrus]

Kennedy was also the first candidate to use tv so efficiently. People who heard the Kennedy Nixon debate on the radio thought Nixon clearly one. People who saw it on TV thought Kennedy won. Nixon had a terrible fear of public speaking and would sweat like a pig and look very uncomfortable but he knew his shit. He was terribly paranoid and had low self esteem. He was winning that election (not Kennedy) by the biggest landslide and he still had to do watergate. Nixon was quite a man, lost so many runs but kept coming back. Could have been one of the great ones. At the height of impeachment he wasn’t sleeping and walking around the White House talking to portraits of the presidents. Probably in a psychotic break. I read several of his post President books and the guy really was a genius. I suppose many would argue that with me, I don’t know if they read his books.

Was Washington sending in troops to butcher Indians evil or did he just have enough of Indians attacking settlers which was left over from the British troops paying Indians for American scalps and more for the fetus of an American out of a women’s womb? Andrew Jackson fucking over Indians for access to gold when he had just set a deal with them, evil, or was the US in such dire straights it had to happen.

How about Hancock putting out those articles on John Adams having all kinds of weird sexual trysts when they were best friends but Hancock would do anything for that power. Then we could get into Hamilton and the shit he pulled as president. Who next you wanna talk Grant, he had a laundry list. We could do this all night, I got something on all of them James K Polk and illegal wars. This isn’t about making trump look good but if we are going to compare him with other presidents, let’s do it.

[walrus]

And I know we shouldn’t compare presidents but when Obama and trump met Obama told him NK is the biggest thread we are facing and War was a very real possibility. The White House was already figuring how much of Seoul would be lost until we could take out there offensive artillery, which was and is massive. What did trump give up? War games that lead to second best Korea getting bombed a few times? Do you think trump went into this thinking it was a sure thing or just try a different approach for the first time since the truce or cease fire. The tree top wars weren’t that long ago. I think it was a smart move. I say if Kim wants a Burger King we should give it to him. Burger King for bombs, let’s do it. Or would we rather potentially lose miles because we will take NK out but it’ll be a mess

[Fatboxingfan]

Damn, B, you really read up on shit. Avid n shitz. John Adams did weird sexual shit? Damn. Nixon lived just 4 miles from an ex-poster on here. From 1975 until the late 80s. I've heard it was Upper Saddle River, NJ. Burning Hollow development. Nixon opened up China, but I think his biggest mistake was taking us off the gold standard you know the bretton woods deal

[walrus]

Damn, B, you really read up on shit. Avid n shitz. John Adams did weird sexual shit? Damn. Nixon lived just 4 miles from an ex-poster on here. From 1975 until the late 80s. I've heard it was Upper Saddle River, NJ. Burning Hollow development. Nixon opened up China, but I think his biggest mistake was taking us off the gold standard you know the bretton woods deal

True that Nixon finished that but it started before him he just put the final nails in it. To be clear Adams did not do weird sexual shit, he was very devoted to his wife and his contemporaries knew the shit Hancock was spewing was bullshit. I’m just saying Hancock is another deified president and he was a brilliant man just saying he got down and dirty and threw out some nasty attacks and would do anything to ruin a mans reputation to make himself look better and grab power. I can’t give any president a 100% positive rating. Polk is probably the only president who actually fulfilled all of his campaign promises but he did some nasty stuff to do it. Wilson was a straight up racist and segregationist the ever so great Roosevelt locked up American citizens of Japanese decent and now all the sudden Trump is the worst president we have ever had? The bar is low. If you don’t know history or just listen to the msm I can see how people believe that.

[TitoFan]

Kennedy was also the first candidate to use tv so efficiently. People who heard the Kennedy Nixon debate on the radio thought Nixon clearly one. People who saw it on TV thought Kennedy won. Nixon had a terrible fear of public speaking and would sweat like a pig and look very uncomfortable but he knew his shit. He was terribly paranoid and had low self esteem. He was winning that election (not Kennedy) by the biggest landslide and he still had to do watergate. Nixon was quite a man, lost so many runs but kept coming back. Could have been one of the great ones. At the height of impeachment he wasn’t sleeping and walking around the White House talking to portraits of the presidents. Probably in a psychotic break. I read several of his post President books and the guy really was a genius. I suppose many would argue that with me, I don’t know if they read his books.

Was Washington sending in troops to butcher Indians evil or did he just have enough of Indians attacking settlers which was left over from the British troops paying Indians for American scalps and more for the fetus of an American out of a women’s womb? Andrew Jackson fucking over Indians for access to gold when he had just set a deal with them, evil, or was the US in such dire straights it had to happen.

How about Hancock putting out those articles on John Adams having all kinds of weird sexual trysts when they were best friends but Hancock would do anything for that power. Then we could get into Hamilton and the shit he pulled as president. Who next you wanna talk Grant, he had a laundry list. We could do this all night, I got something on all of them James K Polk and illegal wars. This isn’t about making trump look good but if we are going to compare him with other presidents, let’s do it.

Well good on you for digging up all possible dirt on every other President to make your point.

But once again my point for clarity....... and what has always been the point of this thread.

I'm not comparing policy making or decisions made domestically or on foreign affairs.

That would be a never-ending flow of unwinnable shit, because everyone here (and in the whole population) thinks differently about how foreign affairs and domestic matters should be handled.

I'm all about how a President conducts himself in public, both here and abroad.

Hate on Kennedy all you want. Hate on all other Presidents with skeletons in their closet.

Point is..... and will remain.... that never in the history of the U.S. has there ever been a President whose very presence in a monumental embarrassment to many.

Petty, egocentric, and so many other unflattering characteristics to add to the list.

He does not ACT like a President of the United States.

Look... why go through this song and dance for the umpteenth time. You know what I mean, although obviously you're totally entitled to disagree.

He's like the Rodney Dangerfield of Presidents (Caddyshack, anyone?).




Oh.... and that "he's a New Yorker" defense is getting old.

If that's the case, do yourselves a favor and amend the Constitution to eliminate New Yorkers from Presidential contention.

[Gandalf]

As a Christian do you have no objection to him smuggling women into the White House for his 'sex addiction'? I bet Trump doesn't do that.

[TitoFan]

It would take half the country's GNP to have "Rodney" drag a woman kicking and screaming into the WH.

Besides... he doesn't need that. He routinely makes love to himself.

[walrus]

Kennedy was also the first candidate to use tv so efficiently. People who heard the Kennedy Nixon debate on the radio thought Nixon clearly one. People who saw it on TV thought Kennedy won. Nixon had a terrible fear of public speaking and would sweat like a pig and look very uncomfortable but he knew his shit. He was terribly paranoid and had low self esteem. He was winning that election (not Kennedy) by the biggest landslide and he still had to do watergate. Nixon was quite a man, lost so many runs but kept coming back. Could have been one of the great ones. At the height of impeachment he wasn’t sleeping and walking around the White House talking to portraits of the presidents. Probably in a psychotic break. I read several of his post President books and the guy really was a genius. I suppose many would argue that with me, I don’t know if they read his books.

Was Washington sending in troops to butcher Indians evil or did he just have enough of Indians attacking settlers which was left over from the British troops paying Indians for American scalps and more for the fetus of an American out of a women’s womb? Andrew Jackson fucking over Indians for access to gold when he had just set a deal with them, evil, or was the US in such dire straights it had to happen.

How about Hancock putting out those articles on John Adams having all kinds of weird sexual trysts when they were best friends but Hancock would do anything for that power. Then we could get into Hamilton and the shit he pulled as president. Who next you wanna talk Grant, he had a laundry list. We could do this all night, I got something on all of them James K Polk and illegal wars. This isn’t about making trump look good but if we are going to compare him with other presidents, let’s do it.

Well good on you for digging up all possible dirt on every other President to make your point.

But once again my point for clarity....... and what has always been the point of this thread.

I'm not comparing policy making or decisions made domestically or on foreign affairs.

That would be a never-ending flow of unwinnable shit, because everyone here (and in the whole population) thinks differently about how foreign affairs and domestic matters should be handled.

I'm all about how a President conducts himself in public, both here and abroad.

Hate on Kennedy all you want. Hate on all other Presidents with skeletons in their closet.

Point is..... and will remain.... that never in the history of the U.S. has there ever been a President whose very presence in a monumental embarrassment to many.

Petty, egocentric, and so many other unflattering characteristics to add to the list.

He does not ACT like a President of the United States.

Look... why go through this song and dance for the umpteenth time. You know what I mean, although obviously you're totally entitled to disagree.

He's like the Rodney Dangerfield of Presidents (Caddyshack, anyone?).




Oh.... and that "he's a New Yorker" defense is getting old.

If that's the case, do yourselves a favor and amend the Constitution to eliminate New Yorkers from Presidential contention.

Ok if you wanna have all this hate based on comparing him to one presidents ability to use TV, look and talk well, if gruff talk makes orange man the worse, that’s your prerogative I just use different “bars” to measure presidents