Post your top ten heavyweights

[Fenster]

Not putting in Ortiz into your lists is ridiculous. Especially when someone like Povetkin is in there along with up and comers who haven’t been tested at all.

Povetkin has a million times better resume than Ortiz.

Ortiz best win = Jennings? Thompson? Hammer? Best he faced = Wilder.

Povetkin best win = Byrd? Chagaev? Huck? Chambers? Takam? Perez? Hunter? Best he faced = Wlad and AJ.

This about now and not their career.Povetkin hasn’t really beaten anyone of note for years and hasn’t looked either

Ortiz has never beat anyone of note. That's the point. Hunter is better than anyone Ortiz has faced (barring Wilder, of course). Ortiz lofty status is a bigger smoke and mirrors job than Wilder's 40-0 KO's.

[TitoFan]

Not putting in Ortiz into your lists is ridiculous. Especially when someone like Povetkin is in there along with up and comers who haven’t been tested at all.

Povetkin has a million times better resume than Ortiz.

Ortiz best win = Jennings? Thompson? Hammer? Best he faced = Wilder.

Povetkin best win = Byrd? Chagaev? Huck? Chambers? Takam? Perez? Hunter? Best he faced = Wlad and AJ.

This about now and not their career.Povetkin hasn’t really beaten anyone of note for years and hasn’t looked either

Ortiz has never beat anyone of note. That's the point. Hunter is better than anyone Ortiz has faced (barring Wilder, of course). Ortiz lofty status is a bigger smoke and mirrors job than Wilder's 40-0 KO's.

Comparing resumes has always been subjective. I'd agree that Povetkin's resume is better than Ortiz's, but not by the huge stretch you imply. Two things though...

Ortiz's resume would've had more big names had he not been pretty much avoided during his prime. Again somewhat subjective, but the generally accepted truth. He's always been viewed as a high-risk, low-reward opponent.

Second... why the lofty status for Hunter? Frankly, if you're going to lift up Hunter while downgrading Jennings (an Ortiz opponent), I'm pretty sure the opposite case could be made.

In fact, if we're comparing resumes, Jennings runs rings around Hunter. Why you have Hunter as your own #7 is puzzling to say the least.

[Alpha]

Not putting in Ortiz into your lists is ridiculous. Especially when someone like Povetkin is in there along with up and comers who haven’t been tested at all.

Povetkin has a million times better resume than Ortiz.

Ortiz best win = Jennings? Thompson? Hammer? Best he faced = Wilder.

Povetkin best win = Byrd? Chagaev? Huck? Chambers? Takam? Perez? Hunter? Best he faced = Wlad and AJ.

This about now and not their career.Povetkin hasn’t really beaten anyone of note for years and hasn’t looked either

Ortiz has never beat anyone of note. That's the point. Hunter is better than anyone Ortiz has faced (barring Wilder, of course). Ortiz lofty status is a bigger smoke and mirrors job than Wilder's 40-0 KO's.

Comparing resumes has always been subjective. I'd agree that Povetkin's resume is better than Ortiz's, but not by the huge stretch you imply. Two things though...

Ortiz's resume would've had more big names had he not been pretty much avoided during his prime. Again somewhat subjective, but the generally accepted truth. He's always been viewed as a high-risk, low-reward opponent.

Second... why the lofty status for Hunter? Frankly, if you're going to lift up Hunter while downgrading Jennings (an Ortiz opponent), I'm pretty sure the opposite case could be made.

In fact, if we're comparing resumes, Jennings runs rings around Hunter. Why you have Hunter as your own #7 is puzzling to say the least.

I thought Hunter beat Povetkin. Add in Kiladze, Bakole, Ustinov and Kuzmin and it's not a bad run so far since moving up from Cruiser.

[Fenster]

Hunter's draw with Povetkin is stronger form than anything Ortiz has done. He's in his prime, just held his own with a former "champ" and perennial top 10 heavyweight and gave Uysk (P4Per) his most competitive fight to date (IMO).

Ortiz best win - Jennings - has just been schooled by a prospect and prior to that ironed out by Rivas (10th). Ortiz fought him on the back of a loss. Ortiz best recent victory is over Hammer (a man Povetkin beat with ease who wouldn't rank in his top ten best wins). So whether we use recent form or backdated stuff Povetkin trumps Ortiz at every turn... unless, of course, we are crediting Ortiz for being Wilder's claim to fame (which is obvious).

So lets play that game.

Ortiz - best fighter faced = Wilder
Povetkin - best fighter faced = Wlad/AJ
Hunter - best fighter faced = Uysk (Povetkin at heavy)
Jennings - best fighter faced = Wlad

You see? We have a pattern forming here where Ortiz and Wilder are isolated whilst the others have all competed against first ballot HOF-ers and genuine champs.

My argument isn't about "what could have been" or "should have been" it's purely about "what has happened." Fact. And guess what? If you disagree with my reasoning that's cool and the gang.

[TitoFan]

And yet Jennings had just given Wlad a credible challenge the fight before Ortiz. So it's hardly fair to compare that Jennings to the one who has obviously faded and is on his way out, isn't it.

Not to mention that Jennings was the one who handed Perez his first loss. The very same Perez you tout as one of Povetkin's best wins.

The Povetkin win over Byrd was good, no doubt about that. But let's not forget that Byrd was two fights away from the end of his career and he was never truly a legitimate HW no matter how much some fans may have wished him to be. So you had a young, hungry prospect beating an old, overblown cruiser masquerading as a HW, while outweighing him by nearly 20 pounds and almost 10 years age difference.

Byrd is just a name on Povetkin's resume.

Again... I'm not arguing that Povetkin's resume isn't better than Ortiz's. Only that it's not the wide chasm you're making it out to be.

But like you said.... we can obviously disagree.

[Fenster]

Perez was "robbed" against Jennings... knocked unconscious in a round by Povetkin. The manner of victory is a factor in the way we rate careers, right?

I haven't compared the "faded" Jennings with the "non faded" version. You have that impression because - @TitoFan - you've butted into a discussion I was having with Powerpuncher, who is arguing Ortiz current form is superior to Povetkin's. You are bringing up points that strengthen my argument whilst weakening his. I was disproving your claim that Jennings should be above Hunter.

I'm happy to debate any opinions but it needs to be kept in context because I have no interest in tantrums and tiaras.

[TitoFan]

Perez was "robbed" against Jennings... knocked unconscious in a round by Povetkin. The manner of victory is a factor in the way we rate careers, right?

I haven't compared the "faded" Jennings with the "non faded" version. You have that impression because - @TitoFan - you've butted (Nobody "butted" into anything. Last I checked this was an open forum where we're all free to enter into any discussion. Particularly about boxing. But then again as a Mod, I'm sure you're aware of that. Feel free to tell me if the rules have changed.) into a discussion I was having with Powerpuncher, who is arguing Ortiz current form is superior to Povetkin's. You are bringing up points that strengthen my argument whilst weakening his. I was disproving your claim that Jennings should be above Hunter.

I'm happy to debate any opinions but it needs to be kept in context because I have no interest in tantrums and tiaras.

Nor do I.

In fact, I have no interest in continuing our dialogue period.

[powerpuncher]

Hunter's draw with Povetkin is stronger form than anything Ortiz has done. He's in his prime, just held his own with a former "champ" and perennial top 10 heavyweight and gave Uysk (P4Per) his most competitive fight to date (IMO).

Ortiz best win - Jennings - has just been schooled by a prospect and prior to that ironed out by Rivas (10th). Ortiz fought him on the back of a loss. Ortiz best recent victory is over Hammer (a man Povetkin beat with ease who wouldn't rank in his top ten best wins). So whether we use recent form or backdated stuff Povetkin trumps Ortiz at every turn... unless, of course, we are crediting Ortiz for being Wilder's claim to fame (which is obvious).

So lets play that game.

Ortiz - best fighter faced = Wilder
Povetkin - best fighter faced = Wlad/AJ
Hunter - best fighter faced = Uysk (Povetkin at heavy)
Jennings - best fighter faced = Wlad

You see? We have a pattern forming here where Ortiz and Wilder are isolated whilst the others have all competed against first ballot HOF-ers and genuine champs.

My argument isn't about "what could have been" or "should have been" it's purely about "what has happened." Fact. And guess what? If you disagree with my reasoning that's cool and the gang.

It doesn’t matter so much “who” they faced if they lost. To an extent it does, but as I mentioned before, Ortiz’ only losses were against a top HW who he was beating before getting knocked out both times. Povetkin got schooled by AJ. It wasn’t close. And Hunter still easily got beat by Usyk. It’s not like he gave him a competitive fight. So again, we need to look at their wins.

Ortiz has basically easily outboxed anyone he has faced (including in his losses). It’s not like Povetkin or Hunter looked that impressive against each other. Hunter is still an unknown at HW while Povetkin has seen better days. Ortiz maybe too, but nobody has proven to make him look bad yet. The same can’t be said for Povetkin.

[Alpha]

Hunter's draw with Povetkin is stronger form than anything Ortiz has done. He's in his prime, just held his own with a former "champ" and perennial top 10 heavyweight and gave Uysk (P4Per) his most competitive fight to date (IMO).

Ortiz best win - Jennings - has just been schooled by a prospect and prior to that ironed out by Rivas (10th). Ortiz fought him on the back of a loss. Ortiz best recent victory is over Hammer (a man Povetkin beat with ease who wouldn't rank in his top ten best wins). So whether we use recent form or backdated stuff Povetkin trumps Ortiz at every turn... unless, of course, we are crediting Ortiz for being Wilder's claim to fame (which is obvious).

So lets play that game.

Ortiz - best fighter faced = Wilder
Povetkin - best fighter faced = Wlad/AJ
Hunter - best fighter faced = Uysk (Povetkin at heavy)
Jennings - best fighter faced = Wlad

You see? We have a pattern forming here where Ortiz and Wilder are isolated whilst the others have all competed against first ballot HOF-ers and genuine champs.

My argument isn't about "what could have been" or "should have been" it's purely about "what has happened." Fact. And guess what? If you disagree with my reasoning that's cool and the gang.

I see Briedis as Usyk’s toughest fight.

If we go back to 2015 (even that is generous for a current evaluation of ranking), we have Ortiz with wins over Jennings, Thompson, Scott and Hammer. Povetkin has Perez, Wach, Duhaupas, Hammer, Price and Hughie Fury. You could give Povetkin the slight edge there. Ortiz has suffered 2 losses to Wilder in that time and Povetkin has the loss to Joshua and the draw with Hunter (which I felt he lost). Most here would still rate Wilder highly in the division. So, for me the ‘loss’ to Hunter (who was more than likely outside most top 10s coming into the Povtkin fight) just keeps Ortiz above Povetkin. I'm not disagreeing with your thought process, just giving my own considerations.

[Fenster]

Good argument, it makes sense. I don't agree but it makes sense. If only everyone could stick to the debate instead of putting words in others mouths and inventing arguments never made. Unfortunately some here get a kick out of causing trouble and ruining threads, they have no real interest in debating boxing, just forum wars. Shame.

[Freedom]

Hunter's draw with Povetkin is stronger form than anything Ortiz has done. He's in his prime, just held his own with a former "champ" and perennial top 10 heavyweight and gave Uysk (P4Per) his most competitive fight to date (IMO).

Ortiz best win - Jennings - has just been schooled by a prospect and prior to that ironed out by Rivas (10th). Ortiz fought him on the back of a loss. Ortiz best recent victory is over Hammer (a man Povetkin beat with ease who wouldn't rank in his top ten best wins). So whether we use recent form or backdated stuff Povetkin trumps Ortiz at every turn... unless, of course, we are crediting Ortiz for being Wilder's claim to fame (which is obvious).

So lets play that game.

Ortiz - best fighter faced = Wilder
Povetkin - best fighter faced = Wlad/AJ
Hunter - best fighter faced = Uysk (Povetkin at heavy)
Jennings - best fighter faced = Wlad

You see? We have a pattern forming here where Ortiz and Wilder are isolated whilst the others have all competed against first ballot HOF-ers and genuine champs.

My argument isn't about "what could have been" or "should have been" it's purely about "what has happened." Fact. And guess what? If you disagree with my reasoning that's cool and the gang.

You are correct.

I've followed the heavyweight division probably as closely as anyone during the past fifteen years (recall my heavyweight thread) and I agree with you.

Luiz Ortiz has been very overrated. His resume is awful except for Jennings. He fought an opponent in his pro debut in his 18th pro fight. Tony Thompson was good in his late 30s, but he was a faded age 45 when he fought Ortiz. Monte Barrett was well over 40 and a full decade past his prime.

Povetkin has fought much better opposition. He went the distance with a still-prime Klitschko. His only other loss, when he was himself past prime, was to Joshua. Both prime Klitschko and current Joshua are much better than Wilder, who twice stopped Ortiz.

[powerpuncher]

Strange that Ortiz is so overrated yet nobody wanted to fight him. You would think with how highly touted he was, many HWs would have been lining up to beat him. I mean Whyte wouldn’t fight him even though he was a mandatory. That’s strange since Ortiz would be such an easy fight 🤔

[TitoFan]

Luiz Ortiz has been very overrated. His resume is awful except for Jennings. He fought an opponent in his pro debut in his 18th pro fight. Tony Thompson was good in his late 30s, but he was a faded age 45 when he fought Ortiz. Monte Barrett was well over 40 and a full decade past his prime.

Povetkin has fought much better opposition. He went the distance with a still-prime Klitschko. His only other loss, when he was himself past prime, was to Joshua. Both prime Klitschko and current Joshua are much better than Wilder, who twice stopped Ortiz.

Nobody here disagrees that Povetkin's resume is superior to Ortiz's. But my question to you would be comparing Michael Hunter's resume versus Bryant Jennings, the former an opponent of Povetkin's and the latter an opponent of Ortiz. Jennings may be washed up and on his way out now, but when he fought Ortiz he was just off a UD loss to Wlad and a decision win over Mike Perez just before that. He entered the Wlad fight as the #2, 3, and 4 ranked (WBA, WBO, and IBF respectively) ranked heavyweight in the world. Hunter by contrast, had done absolute jack at heavy before his split decision draw vs Povetkin. Which is why I don't see using Jennings, Hunter, or Perez for that matter to advance arguments about Povetkin's resume vs Ortiz. Not even Byrd, who was just a washed up shell of himself when he faced the young, hungry Povetkin. What's your take on this................. Freedom?

[Alpha]

I didn't really see much wrong with your earlier posts Tito, although there may have been some mis-communication. I think Fenster was trying to point out that Hunter has a better record at heavy than Jennings (correct me if I'm of base). If that is the case, then I agree, but there is not really much in it at this stage. Looking at Jenning's record only Dimitrenko, Perez and Szpilka are note worthy at best. Hunter has Bakole, Ustinov, Kuzmin and I thought he beat Povetkin, but a draw against a top 10 guy none the less, and he has only been at heavy for 2 years roughly. Jenning has been a career heavy for roughly 10 years.

[Freedom]

Nobody here disagrees that Povetkin's resume is superior to Ortiz's. But my question to you would be comparing Michael Hunter's resume versus Bryant Jennings, the former an opponent of Povetkin's and the latter an opponent of Ortiz. Jennings may be washed up and on his way out now, but when he fought Ortiz he was just off a UD loss to Wlad and a decision win over Mike Perez just before that. He entered the Wlad fight as the #2, 3, and 4 ranked (WBA, WBO, and IBF respectively) ranked heavyweight in the world. Hunter by contrast, had done absolute jack at heavy before his split decision draw vs Povetkin. Which is why I don't see using Jennings, Hunter, or Perez for that matter to advance arguments about Povetkin's resume vs Ortiz. Not even Byrd, who was just a washed up shell of himself when he faced the young, hungry Povetkin. What's your take on this................. Freedom?

- Hunter did not fight a prime Povetkin, Sasha is 40 and Hunter is in his prime at 30. Povetkin of say 2007 to 2015 would have easily beaten Hunter. Bryd was faded in 2007, true, but so is Povetkin now. By the way, Povetkin deserved to win against Hunter, remember there was a knockdown of Hunter that the ref ignored.

- Chambers was young and very fast when Povetkin beat him in 2008 (see Chambers vs an undefeated and better version of Dimitrenko). Povetkin's wins over Chagaev and Perez were impressive. Wawrzyk was never any good despite the undefeated record, but Takam was six years younger and a strong, capable heavyweight (maybe deserved at least a draw against Parker) around the time he fought Povetkin.

- Povetkin's amateur record is much better than Ortiz's. In the world championships in 2003, Povetkin beat a better Cuban than Ortiz, who was not even one of the top two Cuban heavyweights of his time.

- I remember watching Jennings vs. Klitschko and thinking Wlad is finally fading with age, his movements are slower and not as fluid at age 38 as they were when he was younger. I remember posting that prime Wlad vs. Jennings would have been a lot like 2006 Wlad vs. Brock or 2000 Wlad vs. Barrett.

- How many world titleholders has Ortiz fought? One, who twice knocked him out. How many has Povetkin fought? Four, his record is 2-2 and he was only stopped once, when he was age 38 and in against a better heavyweight than Wilder.