Canelo vs Callum Smith on Dec 19th

[TIC]

As long as 1 of those fights is Charlo then good on him.

charlo would need to move up, i don't think we will see canelo at middle again. avni, caleb & billy joe should be easy to make

And not one fight to care about there. Charlo has already said he would move up for Canelo. He already chased him out of 2 divisions and made them invent a sanctioned ducking mechanism. Why not chase him out of a 3rd?

we could weight for them to fight each other. everybody would move for canelo, nothing new there

So you’re admitting “weight” that he’s going to run. Got it. More Caneloweight fights coming you suppose?

Edit-run again. Because he’s already run multiple times(nobody is forgetting Caneloweight)

should have been wait. canelo doesn't seem the type to run from tough opponents. jermall will get some when the time is right

[Ron Swanson]

As long as 1 of those fights is Charlo then good on him.

charlo would need to move up, i don't think we will see canelo at middle again. avni, caleb & billy joe should be easy to make

And not one fight to care about there. Charlo has already said he would move up for Canelo. He already chased him out of 2 divisions and made them invent a sanctioned ducking mechanism. Why not chase him out of a 3rd?

we could weight for them to fight each other. everybody would move for canelo, nothing new there

So you’re admitting “weight” that he’s going to run. Got it. More Caneloweight fights coming you suppose?

Edit-run again. Because he’s already run multiple times(nobody is forgetting Caneloweight)

should have been wait. canelo doesn't seem the type to run from tough opponents. jermall will get some when the time is right

Let’s cut the back and forth and both admit what holds that fight up. Canelo has always had fast hands and good head movement with sound defense, and that’s only getting better(the head movement and defense). But he has never had fast feet and he is slower of foot since his knee injury.

The reason the Charlo fight is put off in favor of others is he has movement with a powerful long jab and power in both hands. He’s not as good as Canelo but those factors do not favor Canelo’s current situation. He can handle a mover that can’t keep him honest(BJS) or a plodder that is long and powerful (Smith, Kovalev). But nobody wants a long powerful, fast opponent that can also move. Even if they are better fighters.(GGG and Canelo)

So people refuse the fight and use “who has he fought, what does he offer”, a guy can’t say “I fought XXX” if XXX won’t fight him. It’s a sick circle of picking fights that look hard, but aren’t actually hard. While ignoring fights that present real problems. I don’t blame Canelo. His resume is stellar. But I do blame media and fans that support the BS. I get the media’s motivation but fans should be honest about it.

Canelo probably wins the fight, but it should happen so we can see. Literally nobody wants the Avni fight or the BJS fight, the Plant fight presents some issues but his chin will probably let him down. That’s a year gone, in Canelo’s prime, proving nothing.

[TitoFan]

A few truths and good points mixed in with what amounts to throwing in the towel against TIC. Oh well.

It was the "he's not as good as Canelo" part that was enough to make one physically ill.

I'll stay on my little island proclaiming that Canelo is a manufactured hype job who is good (no one is disputing that)... but has had every single cotton-pickin' fight calculated and re-calculated in order to eliminate any chance of an upset of the golden apple cart.

People here (mostly British boxing fans) want to make a big deal about Callum Smith, when in actuality he totally floored me with how ineffective and vulnerable he looked against Canelo.

Again... hats off to the Canelo Computer Department (CCD), who as always was totally adept at picking out Callum.

The excuse of not being able to go to 160 to fight Charlo is as thin as deli-cut ham.

He can't make 160 for Charlo... but let Spence agree to go up there and watch the contract be signed in an hour's time.

He also can't go up to 175. But let Beterbiev retire or have the invincibility bludgeoned out of him (ala Kovalev)...... and you'll see the CCD churning away, plugging numbers and scenarios into the computer.

FFS..... what the hell happened to the champions who would fight anyone at ANY TIME, ANY PLACE, ANY HOW.

BTW, I saw a vid on Canelo saying he wanted to fight in Japan.

What... is there a sick cow there with a belt?

Give me a fukking break.

[Memphis]

FFS..... what the hell happened to the champions who would fight anyone at ANY TIME, ANY PLACE, ANY HOW.

Who do you have in mind when you say that?

This idea that a fighter will go from best possible challenge onto best possible challenge is bordering on fantasy isn't it?

[Ron Swanson]

FFS..... what the hell happened to the champions who would fight anyone at ANY TIME, ANY PLACE, ANY HOW.

Who do you have in mind when you say that?

This idea that a fighter will go from best possible challenge onto best possible challenge is bordering on fantasy isn't it?

How about Bodou Jack for an example? Got his title vs
Anthony Dirrell then fought
George Groves
Lucian Bute
James DeGale

Then went to went to Light Heavyweight for title fights vs
Nathan Cleverly then
Adonis Stevenson then lost to
Marcus Browne and then lost to
Jean Pascal

[Memphis]

FFS..... what the hell happened to the champions who would fight anyone at ANY TIME, ANY PLACE, ANY HOW.

Who do you have in mind when you say that?

This idea that a fighter will go from best possible challenge onto best possible challenge is bordering on fantasy isn't it?

How about Bodou Jack for an example? Got his title vs
Anthony Dirrell then fought
George Groves
Lucian Bute
James DeGale

Then went to went to Light Heavyweight for title fights vs
Nathan Cleverly then
Adonis Stevenson then lost to
Marcus Browne and then lost to
Jean Pascal

A fine list of fighters no doubt. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I have no issue whatsoever with that level of opposition. But were they all the best of the best at the time? I wouldn't begrudge anyone winning a title against anyone. But Cleverly? Best possible challenge out there?

[Ron Swanson]

FFS..... what the hell happened to the champions who would fight anyone at ANY TIME, ANY PLACE, ANY HOW.

Who do you have in mind when you say that?

This idea that a fighter will go from best possible challenge onto best possible challenge is bordering on fantasy isn't it?

How about Bodou Jack for an example? Got his title vs
Anthony Dirrell then fought
George Groves
Lucian Bute
James DeGale

Then went to went to Light Heavyweight for title fights vs
Nathan Cleverly then
Adonis Stevenson then lost to
Marcus Browne and then lost to
Jean Pascal

A fine list of fighters no doubt. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I have no issue whatsoever with that level of opposition. But were they all the best of the best at the time? I wouldn't begrudge anyone winning a title against anyone. But Cleverly? Best possible challenge out there?

It was his first fight at a new weight, a title fight, a real title mind you.

[TitoFan]

FFS..... what the hell happened to the champions who would fight anyone at ANY TIME, ANY PLACE, ANY HOW.

Who do you have in mind when you say that?

This idea that a fighter will go from best possible challenge onto best possible challenge is bordering on fantasy isn't it?

Let's start with the "any place" part. How about your own Tyson Fury?

I'm not a fan of his resume nor his style. But the guy went to Germany to beat Wladimir... and went to the States to beat Wilder. Those are some big "cojones" in my book.

Now let's talk about challenges. We'll pick a Mexican champion, to dispel any lingering notions in the back of anyone's head.

How about MAB?

The guy's a poster boy for picking tough challenges after tough challenges. He follows a DQ loss against the tough Junior Jones with an immediate rematch against Jones and, alas, loses by UD.

He has two close wins over the rugged Rocky Juarez and follows that up with a UD loss to Juan Manuel Marquez. So what does his do? He goes after Manny Pacquiao, and loses that one by decision also.

Finally, I'll mention my own all-time favorite fighter (who I rarely mention here)... Trinidad.

Take a good look at Trinidad's resume and tell me how many fighters:

• Jumped two weight divisions to get there.
• Were old and way past their prime.
• Had been weakened, exposed, or ruined by someone else.
• Fought in Puerto Rico with Puerto Rican judges (or bought judges).
• Had to fight at ridiculous catchweights.
• Were outweighed by Trinidad on fight night by 20+ pounds.
• Had to wait to be "marinated."

Case dismissed.

Then there's another local champion from here... Wilfredo Vazquez Sr. He traveled to so many countries they had to continue stapling pages to his passport.

There are many other examples... these are just a few.

Problem is we as fans have allowed the bar to be lowered over the years... and our heroes now have to have the deck stacked in their favor lest they disappoint us and we have to look elsewhere.

[Memphis]

Tyson fury chose to fight Martin Rogan for the Irish title rather than fight David Price for the British title. At the time, Price was everyone's tip for the top and even with the benefit of hindsight, still a far tougher challenge than Rogan. Fury fights to a draw (read wins) against Wilder. Then follows that up with the biggest best challenge out there in Tom Schwarz and Otto Wallin?


Again, I have no issue whatsoever with the records of MAB and Trinidad. But again, are we saying that winning a vacant title against Richie Wenton and the then defending it against Paul Lloyd was the stiffest test out there? C'mon man.

Like I said I got no problem with anyone winning a title wherever there is a title to be won. But between Blocker and De La Hoya, is Trinidad's record littered with the crème de la crème? Some good names for sure, but were they really the best on offer?

Before anyone gets this twisted and thinks I'm shitting on the likes of Trinidad or MAB I'm clearly not. Great fighters, properly great fighters of course they are. But lets not pretend that they did things differently to anyone else. Or rather lets say things didn't pan out for them the way it pans out for everyone else. Because for every great 50/50 matchup, every great win on foreign soil. There are a number of gimmes. Angles, just past their best names, fighters that didn't quite belong in the first place. That's the reality. Not best after best after best. It just doesn't happen and it's as unrealistic to demand it now as it was then or at any other time.

[Memphis]

Problem is we as fans have allowed the bar to be lowered over the years... and our heroes now have to have the deck stacked in their favor lest they disappoint us and we have to look elsewhere.

Yes and no for me. Years ago we had to take promotions word for many things. We didn't have the internet. We couldn't quickly jump on boxrec or youtube and see for ourselves that this 'unbeaten' 'KO artist' that was being imported from Timbuktu was in fact.......dogshit. It was a running joke back in the 90's how Frank Warren could shoehorn 'World Championship Boxing' onto a fight poster by buying in some WBU or worse title.

We know a dud when we're being sold one.

In keeping with the previous post I don't see much different going on these days. If we think fighters, or rather managers and promoters back in the day weren't looking at every angle to stack the deck in their guys favour, I think we're barking up the wrong tree.

[TitoFan]

You make some good points... and most definitely there's no one out there who constantly fights "best after best" without taking a breather now and then. But you have to look at the whole of a fighter's career, IMO. The Trinidads and the MABs of the world (you could throw in literally dozens and dozens of great champions) mostly sought out the best on a fairly consistent basis without having the benefit (nor wanting the benefit) of an entire computerized hype system where every opponent is carefully timed, calculated, and chosen when the computer spits out 2% chance of a loss against that opponent.

Why do you think basically ALL of boxing's ATGs have at least one loss on their record (sometimes 5 or 6)? Because they threw caution to the wind. They took on dangerous opponents at their peak. They traveled to other people's countries to take their titles away from them. Hell... I think Orlando Salido is a cheating bastard. But I respected when he came to Puerto Rico to take Juan Manuel Lopez's title away from him in impressive fashion. Talk about going into the lion's den.

Ok, you mention the Wallins and the Schwartzs of the world. THAT is what frustrates me about Fury. He fights absolute nobodies in between big fights and that is infuriating to many fans. But the Trinidads and the MABs hardly ever did that. Even their "break" fights were fairly decent. Again... it's all about looking at the whole career of fighters. None of the guys mentioned before... not Fury... not Trinidad... not Barrera... not ANY great champion past or present... have had their path carefully preordained since Day One. Ok... there IS one exception. But he himself broke through that anointment and went on to great things. I'm talking about DLH, who you mention. I was never a DLH fan, but respect his resume of opponents, and... although he was always a media darling... he always took on tough, dangerous fights.

The Canelo Phenomenon is something unlike anything we've ever seen. Go back and look at all the bullet points I listed after mentioning Trinidad. Every single one of those things have been involved in Canelo's career. Why? Because since Day One, it was decided that a handsome, redheaded, rugged Mexican fighter was going to be the future Face of Boxing. Every single one of those bullet points have been a staple of Canelo's development. The traveling part is usually not a big deal... but gets magnified with the Redheaded One. The ONLY time he EVER left the friendly confines of his Las Vegas-Texas-Southern Cal Safe Zone was when he went to MSG to pick off Rocky Fielding for an easy gimme trinket. Really? Can no one ELSE see through that sham?

I believe the bar HAS been lowered. There may not have been Internet back in the day... but after all the hype jobs in the world, and all the selling by the Don Kings, Bob Arums, and Frank Warrens of the world.... the "proof was in the pudding", like they say... and what mattered was what happened in the ring. Even then fans were able to process and understand if a fighter was merely padding his record with bums... or was sincerely trying to fight the best out there. Back in the day there were ATGs with as many as 10 losses on their records. It didn't matter. Many avenged losses which added to their legacies and greatness.

Speaking of legacies, here is the problem and hence the bottom line for me:

In the past (including recent past), legacies were built by actions and decided on by fans and knowledgeable press members. With the likes of Canelo, his legacy was preordained, and carefully being protected and constructed by the likes of the WBC... a groveling, sniveling media... and casuals hungry for a "Rocky-like" figure in real life.