yikes, I didn't realize the thread had taken the turn, and Ali was left far behind.

I thought US involvement in Vietnam was an unfortunate quagmire, and was dead set against it.

What we have done in Iraq is worse because we didn't get sucked in slow. We chose it eyes open and willfully full of lies. Stupidest thing possible. I think it probably forms a tipping point toward the decline of the west. Best get in our important boxing matches while we got the time.

Lyle - it's an over statement, what you said, and rude besides. I think it is the moderate Muslims who remain rather voiceless. They get all upset against westerners who dare write some clever but sacreligious cartoons ... all up in arms, and burning embassies, all around the world ... why don't they stand up against the radical muslims and say Hell no that is not the truth! More upset about a cartoon than a beheaded social worker.

That's what bothers me. I want to respect the religion ... for that to happen, the moderates need to show that they can beat the radicals down in the "truthing" department. Who really represents Islam? Those who bring death? Don't tell us that Islam is a religion of peace ... tell it to the muslim brothers who have the bloody machetes in their hands.