Canelo Alvarez vs Gennady Golovkin III 17/9/22

[Primo Carnera]

Andre Ward was unbeatable at super middleweight and faced far better fighters than Canelo did at the weight. He also faced a peak Kovalev who was a beast at light heavyweight at the time.

Ward would beat Canelo at these weights, but he was the smaller fighter so not a fair comparison.

Canelo would be the better pound for pound fighter as the equivalent would be Ward winning at cruiserweight or even heavyweight.

I gave your post a like, but I disagree with the part in bold.
1. You say Canelo is a “smaller fighter”, but that doesn’t matter because SMW is his weight. He WAS a MW, but he is no longer and never ever will be. If they’re the same weight class , it doesn’t matter if he’s smaller, it’s his choice not to make MW.
2. You say the equivalent would be Ward going to CW or HW. not true . The equivalent would be Ward going from SMW to LHW, WHICH HE DID! (He probably could’ve gone to CW as well.)
3. Ward dominated SMW more than Canelo dominated MW or SMW. and by your admission, Ward achieved more at LHW than Canelo. So why is Canelo better p4p ?
Let us not forget, Ward never lost, so we can only surmise as to whether X,Y or Z would beat him . Whereas Canelo has lost a couple of times , so we KNOW he can get beat.

I say Canelo is the better p4p and smaller fighter because he was champion at light middleweight which you have somehow forgotten.

I hadn't forgotten , but i don't see it makes any difference. Are you saying that Pound for Pound should be judged on How Many weights you have won titles at rather than Quality ? if so , I have loads of problems with this.
for Example , and I'm going to regret asking this , but who is the better Boxer p4p , Floyd or Manny ? Manny won titles at a gazillion weights, but you would be in a huge minority if you put him above Floyd p4p.
think back to when they were both Boxing and Floyd was always #1 and Manny was always #2 . please don't become a revisonalist and somehow try to get out of that.
Also , How come Wlad was so high on the p4p lists? or any HW in history going by your way of thinking ??
I reckon you need to go and think about this .

[Master]

I have thought about it and one of the main factors for p4p is based on how well you have done at other weights.

Manny is the better p4p fighter than Floyd. Hearns is better than Leonard.

Wlad dominated the division and had many defences which is why he was near the top.

Besides some of Canelo's best wins were at light middleweight.

[Primo Carnera]

I have thought about it and one of the main factors for p4p is based on how well you have done at other weights.

Manny is the better p4p fighter than Floyd. Hearns is better than Leonard.

Wlad dominated the division and had many defences which is why he was near the top.

Besides some of Canelo's best wins were at light middleweight.

Nah Mate, you are wriggling here big time, but I ain’t letting you off the hook. So many contradictions.
Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?
So , for example, most people rank Crawford higher than Spence p4p, but if Spence beat Crawford, would that still be the case?
Wlad dominated so he’s near the top. Guess what? Ward dominated……….. the only difference is WARD WAS NEVER BEATEN.
I totally see why you would rate Hearns highly, fuck me, I would . But Leonard not only beat him, but he also beat another guy that beat Hearns in Hagler.
So you can’t possibly put him above Leonard. It’s not like SRL didn’t do it at multiple weights.
Don’t get me wrong, I said the other week, if Hearns had beaten SRL and if he hadn’t thrown his game plan out the window against Hagler, we would’ve looked at his career very differently. He may have even been #1 on the all time list. But unfortunately those things never happened.
Trust me, nobody would’ve loved that scenario more than me. Hearns is one of my all time faves.
All of those things I’ve mentioned about SRL & Hearns, you could say the same about Floyd & Manny. But I’m not going to bother, because you clearly can’t be objective when it comes to Floyd.
Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

[TIC]

the opposition on canelo's record smokes andre's. andre has about five top opponents, canelo probably doubles that. canelo was lineal in three weight divisions to andre's two. andre will always be behind canelo in my all time p4p list

[Primo Carnera]

the opposition on canelo's record smokes andre's. andre has about five top opponents, canelo probably doubles that. canelo was lineal in three weight divisions to andre's two. andre will always be behind canelo in my all time p4p list

Canelo took them either past their prime or boiled down to a catchweight within an inch of their lives.
And although in this day and age he compares favourably , he has LOST 2 fights.
Not “I think he lost” or “I think he should have been disqualified,” but ACTUAL REAL LOSSES that will always show on his record.
Ward doesn’t have that.

[TIC]

the opposition on canelo's record smokes andre's. andre has about five top opponents, canelo probably doubles that. canelo was lineal in three weight divisions to andre's two. andre will always be behind canelo in my all time p4p list

Canelo took them either past their prime or boiled down to a catchweight within an inch of their lives.
And although in this day and age he compares favourably , he has LOST 2 fights.
Not “I think he lost” or “I think he should have been disqualified,” but ACTUAL REAL LOSSES that will always show on his record.
Ward doesn’t have that.

not all canelo's best opponents were past prime & andre also drained chad down in weight. most all time greats have actual real losses

[Primo Carnera]

the opposition on canelo's record smokes andre's. andre has about five top opponents, canelo probably doubles that. canelo was lineal in three weight divisions to andre's two. andre will always be behind canelo in my all time p4p list

Canelo took them either past their prime or boiled down to a catchweight within an inch of their lives.
And although in this day and age he compares favourably , he has LOST 2 fights.
Not “I think he lost” or “I think he should have been disqualified,” but ACTUAL REAL LOSSES that will always show on his record.
Ward doesn’t have that.

not all canelo's best opponents were past prime & andre also drained chad down in weight. most all time greats have actual real losses

Yep. But Canelo is not an all time great. In this era, he’s certainly up there, but in case you weren’t aware “all time” is a long time.

[Master]

I have thought about it and one of the main factors for p4p is based on how well you have done at other weights.

Manny is the better p4p fighter than Floyd. Hearns is better than Leonard.

Wlad dominated the division and had many defences which is why he was near the top.

Besides some of Canelo's best wins were at light middleweight.

Nah Mate, you are wriggling here big time, but I ain’t letting you off the hook. So many contradictions.
Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?
So , for example, most people rank Crawford higher than Spence p4p, but if Spence beat Crawford, would that still be the case?
Wlad dominated so he’s near the top. Guess what? Ward dominated……….. the only difference is WARD WAS NEVER BEATEN.
I totally see why you would rate Hearns highly, fuck me, I would . But Leonard not only beat him, but he also beat another guy that beat Hearns in Hagler.
So you can’t possibly put him above Leonard. It’s not like SRL didn’t do it at multiple weights.
Don’t get me wrong, I said the other week, if Hearns had beaten SRL and if he hadn’t thrown his game plan out the window against Hagler, we would’ve looked at his career very differently. He may have even been #1 on the all time list. But unfortunately those things never happened.
Trust me, nobody would’ve loved that scenario more than me. Hearns is one of my all time faves.
All of those things I’ve mentioned about SRL & Hearns, you could say the same about Floyd & Manny. But I’m not going to bother, because you clearly can’t be objective when it comes to Floyd.
Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

Excellent post and some great points. I sometimes forget what a good poster you are.

You can be ranked higher p4p than your opponent who has beaten you depending on the circumstances. So far Crawford has spent the majority of his career at the lighter weights, although this is the longest, he has stayed at any weight. So, his case is weakening if he stayed at the weight any longer and loses to Spence.

Just because Wlad lost does not mean you can not be ranked high on the p4p list because he dominated the weight and had loads of defences against the best available challengers.

I am not going to criticise Ward to make my points as he is a great underrated boxer.

Hearns won more titles at multiple weights and in a better fashion than Leonard who manipulated the fights to achieve his progression.

There is not one single fight at light middleweight that Canelo won that would rank him higher than Ward but the fact that he was the best at the weight and beat Trout and Lara help his case.

[TIC]

Excellent post and some great points. I sometimes forget what a good poster you are.

i wouldn't call misrepresenting what you said excellent posting

[Primo Carnera]

Excellent post and some great points. I sometimes forget what a good poster you are.

i wouldn't call misrepresenting what you said excellent posting

well @Master would, so there you go. @Master, you are very kind and it is always a pleasure to debate with you without things getting too accusatory or heated. And if I'm honest, if it ever does, it's usually from my side , which I apologise for in advance.
@TIC , stop being a sulky pants and spitting the dummy out and behave like a rational adult !

[TIC]

Excellent post and some great points. I sometimes forget what a good poster you are.

i wouldn't call misrepresenting what you said excellent posting

well @Master would, so there you go. @Master, you are very kind and it is always a pleasure to debate with you without things getting too accusatory or heated. And if I'm honest, if it ever does, it's usually from my side , which I apologise for in advance.
@TIC , stop being a sulky pants and spitting the dummy out and behave like a rational adult !

i wouldn't. primo carnera i have always been polite to you in our discussions, it's unfortunate you can't do the same

[TIC]

Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?

to be clear i am talking all time pound for pound, i have to say yes, i can rank a fighter higher all time pound for pound, than an opponent that beat them

Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

he didn't say any of canelo's wins at one fifty four elevated canelo over andre did he, only that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. you just created an argument to attack that he never made

[Primo Carnera]

Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?

to be clear i am talking all time pound for pound, i have to say yes, i can rank a fighter higher all time pound for pound, than an opponent that beat them

Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

he didn't say any of canelo's wins at one fifty four elevated canelo over andre did he, only that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. you just created an argument to attack that he never made

I'm happy for you to jump into this friendly debate I'm having with @Master, because it's an open public forum for all to join in. But if you are going to do so, you need to take it from the start and put it all into context and not just cherry pick pieces out of context because you think they can prove your point in a distorted manner.
The WHOLE Debate started because @Master believed that Canelo was a better p4p fighter than Ward. (Last Sentence post#344) . So when @Master stated that , AND I QUOTE "Besides, some of Canelo's best wins were at LMW" , it is clearly a statement to back up his opinion that Canelo is above Ward p4p.
@Master has since replied and acknowledged this , so he hardly needs you to to speak on his behalf .
Like I said , join in by all means , but make sure you base your Judgement of the WHOLE CASE IN POINT.

[TIC]

Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?

to be clear i am talking all time pound for pound, i have to say yes, i can rank a fighter higher all time pound for pound, than an opponent that beat them

Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

he didn't say any of canelo's wins at one fifty four elevated canelo over andre did he, only that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. you just created an argument to attack that he never made

I'm happy for you to jump into this friendly debate I'm having with @Master, because it's an open public forum for all to join in. But if you are going to do so, you need to take it from the start and put it all into context and not just cherry pick pieces out of context because you think they can prove your point in a distorted manner.
The WHOLE Debate started because @Master believed that Canelo was a better p4p fighter than Ward. (Last Sentence post#344) . So when @Master stated that , AND I QUOTE "Besides, some of Canelo's best wins were at LMW" , it is clearly a statement to back up his opinion that Canelo is above Ward p4p.
@Master has since replied and acknowledged this , so he hardly needs you to to speak on his behalf .
Like I said , join in by all means , but make sure you base your Judgement of the WHOLE CASE IN POINT.

where does he say that any of canelo's defences at light middleweight are good enough to elevate him above andre? he only said that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. if you disagree that they are some of canelo's bests wins, that is fine but it is dishonest to create an argument that was never made. canelo's wins a light middleweight are mentioned because we are talking about careers & all time pound for pound & those fights are part of canelo's career. i'm not speaking for anyone, i am pointing out your dishonesty

[Master]

Can you be higher ranked p4p than your opponent, even if your opponent beat you ?

to be clear i am talking all time pound for pound, i have to say yes, i can rank a fighter higher all time pound for pound, than an opponent that beat them

Finally, you finished off your post trying to justify your view by saying some of Canelo’s best wins were at LMW.
So go on then, tell me which defences at LMW are good enough to elevate him above Ward?

he didn't say any of canelo's wins at one fifty four elevated canelo over andre did he, only that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. you just created an argument to attack that he never made

I'm happy for you to jump into this friendly debate I'm having with @Master, because it's an open public forum for all to join in. But if you are going to do so, you need to take it from the start and put it all into context and not just cherry pick pieces out of context because you think they can prove your point in a distorted manner.
The WHOLE Debate started because @Master believed that Canelo was a better p4p fighter than Ward. (Last Sentence post#344) . So when @Master stated that , AND I QUOTE "Besides, some of Canelo's best wins were at LMW" , it is clearly a statement to back up his opinion that Canelo is above Ward p4p.
@Master has since replied and acknowledged this , so he hardly needs you to to speak on his behalf .
Like I said , join in by all means , but make sure you base your Judgement of the WHOLE CASE IN POINT.

where does he say that any of canelo's defences at light middleweight are good enough to elevate him above andre? he only said that some of canelo's best wins were at light middle. if you disagree that they are some of canelo's bests wins, that is fine but it is dishonest to create an argument that was never made. canelo's wins a light middleweight are mentioned because we are talking about careers & all time pound for pound & those fights are part of canelo's career. i'm not speaking for anyone, i am pointing out your dishonesty

Primo is not being dishonest he just asked a question.

It is an interesting discussion about how we interpret p4p, and we all have our own opinion which we can change through debate. I am open to his thoughts as I am not entirely convinced, I have all the answers on who is the better p4p fighter of the two.

All I would say is that Primo does tend to admire the zero more than it should be as taking a challenge to move up in weight but lose should not be held against them.