Today in Trump

[TitoFan]

We'll agree to disagree.

Admittedly though, it's tough to argue pro-government when a guy like Donald Trump is at the helm. This guy's not fit to run a lemonade stand, much less a country. Leaders should lead by example and earn people's respect. Not by fear, bullying, and intimidation.

I still believe laws are necessary, because people will always disagree between right and wrong. People will always differ in what society's priorities should be. Maybe the analogy of a team is not the best, but think of a team where everyone is pulling in different directions. You need some cohesiveness in a group of people. In this case a society. We don't live in isolation. Everything we do affects our neighbors. Our co-workers. Speaking of which, think of a company. If everyone is left free to decide what's best for the company, you get nowhere. Leaders are paid to make an entity successful. So this is a case where you have leaders giving everyone direction.

The U.S. model for a government has as of late proven to be completely flawed. But this is the fault of the people IN the government. Not the system itself. When the founding fathers got together and drew up the U.S. Constitution, they tried their best to draw up a government that would be accountable to the people, and not allow too much power to any one person or group. Under Trump, this has failed miserably. Trump is either an unhinged dictator shooting from the hip, with his GOP cohorts cowering under the table... or he's a masterfully created puppet of darker forces unseen to the public. Either way, it's a total disaster and the rest of the world is laughing at the U.S. every day.

Finally, let's talk about human nature. I was more optimistic on this topic some years back. But having seen the ugliness, the stupidity, the closemindedness of the masses... I'd have to say my level of faith in a large part of humanity is down to zero. Which is another reason I believe some sort of government is necessary. Otherwise, you have these brainless loonies running amok.

[TIC]

people will always disagree on right & wrong but if you wouldn't want something done to you, you shouldn't do it to others. people will always differ in what society's priorities are but they shouldn't be forced to fund things they disagree with

you & i can join or leave a team voluntarily at anytime, we are not forced to be a part of that team. everything we do does affect our neighbors but i don't force my neighbors to do things against their will with the threat of punishment if they refuse, my interactions are voluntary, non forceful & on a consensual basis. again you & i can join or leave a company voluntarily at anytime. if a team or company was forcing you to do something immoral you can choose to refuse or conform. there is a difference between someone leading say a project & someone ruling over another person. i know you like the apple & oranges term so it would be better not to use false equivalences

democracy has always been flawed as it starts from the premise that some people can rule over others & tell them what they can & can't do against their will, with threats of punishment if they refuse. the constitution has always been a fraud, you & i both know that not everyone agreed & not one hundred percent of people signed, so some were making decisions for other adults without their agreement or consent. it became a total joke when the supreme court gave themselves alone the power to interpret it. the constitution failed from the start, not just under donald, weren't blacks segregated for a long time, doesn't seem very equal, traffic laws infringe on the fourth amendment daily & every gun law is an infringement on the second amendment but i digress

let's talk about human nature, all your laws haven't stopped the ugliness, the stupidity, the closemindedness of the masses (there's a good book called the crowd: a study of the popular mind that you might enjoy). as you & i are having this discussion, i can say for myself that i conduct the affairs of my life in every interaction under a voluntary, non force, consensual basis. i'd like to think you do as well but i don't want to speak on your behalf. can i ask you this, if there was no sort of government tomorrow would you become a brainless loony running amok? we have already agreed that there will always be some who choose to do evil, it sounds like you want some parent type government to keep you safe. that sounds to me like what the mob did in neighbourhoods, pay us & we'll protect you. i don't need a ruler to defend myself & those around me

so back to my original point, you believe it's moral for some people to rule over others & tell them what they can & can't do with threats of punishment if they refuse because as you said if they don't you have these brainless loonies running amok, the problem is these brainless loonies are still running amok. the government won't be there to help you if you get robbed or attacked or if your wife gets raped, they'll send their policy enforcers to investigate the mess, because when seconds count the cops will be there in minutes, that's where being able to defend yourself & others becomes a priority

[TitoFan]

people will always disagree on right & wrong but if you wouldn't want something done to you, you shouldn't do it to others. people will always differ in what society's priorities are but they shouldn't be forced to fund things they disagree with

"You shouldn't do it to others." Sounds great, but unfortunately not everyone lives by that principle. Hence, the need for laws to dissuade them from violating that. By funding I presume you mean taxation. I feel that some sort of public funding is necessary for the very basic, core needs of a society, such as infrastructure. However, I'll admit that the implementation of taxation rules most of the time leaves a lot to be desired. Which is why people are pissed at politicians more often than not.

you & i can join or leave a team voluntarily at anytime, we are not forced to be a part of that team. everything we do does affect our neighbors but i don't force my neighbors to do things against their will with the threat of punishment if they refuse, my interactions are voluntary, non forceful & on a consensual basis. again you & i can join or leave a company voluntarily at anytime. if a team or company was forcing you to do something immoral you can choose to refuse or conform. there is a difference between someone leading say a project & someone ruling over another person. i know you like the apple & oranges term so it would be better not to use false equivalences

A company is maybe not the best analogy, but the fact remains that unless you work for yourself, independently... you'll be working for some sort of company. In a company you have rules. You may not agree with some of them. But in order to remain employed, you must follow them. Not only that, but you will have a boss. The boss decides on what you'll do, and will evaluate you. Sort of like a ruler, you might say. Yes... you can always leave a company. But in order to make a living (again, unless you work independently), you'll just have to go work for another company. You'll have another boss.


democracy has always been flawed as it starts from the premise that some people can rule over others & tell them what they can & can't do against their will, with threats of punishment if they refuse. the constitution has always been a fraud, you & i both know that not everyone agreed & not one hundred percent of people signed, so some were making decisions for other adults without their agreement or consent. it became a total joke when the supreme court gave themselves alone the power to interpret it. the constitution failed from the start, not just under donald, weren't blacks segregated for a long time, doesn't seem very equal, traffic laws infringe on the fourth amendment daily & every gun law is an infringement on the second amendment but i digress

I think you place too much emphasis on "people ruling over others and telling them what they can and can't do against their will, with threats of punishment." I prefer to think of government (if implemented correctly) as an organized way to provide the services needed by society (infrastructure, education, health services, national defense, etc.). I don't believe in a huge government that sticks its nose in matters that should not be its concern... so in that regard, I favor the Republican party point of view. The segregation of blacks? That wasn't a flaw in democracy. That was a huge flaw in humanity. Again... by and large I have very little faith in people's concept of right and wrong. Traffic laws and gun laws? Totally necessary, IMO. Left up to individual criteria, society would be a total mess of road rage, accidents left and right, and chaos. Gun laws are meant to put limits on people who can't discern between protecting your home and family, and wanting weapons of mass destruction. (Many times lacking the mental and emotional fortitude to have guns at all).


let's talk about human nature, all your laws haven't stopped the ugliness, the stupidity, the closemindedness of the masses (there's a good book called the crowd: a study of the popular mind that you might enjoy). as you & i are having this discussion, i can say for myself that i conduct the affairs of my life in every interaction under a voluntary, non force, consensual basis. i'd like to think you do as well but i don't want to speak on your behalf. can i ask you this, if there was no sort of government tomorrow would you become a brainless loony running amok? we have already agreed that there will always be some who choose to do evil, it sounds like you want some parent type government to keep you safe. that sounds to me like what the mob did in neighbourhoods, pay us & we'll protect you. i don't need a ruler to defend myself & those around me

If there was no government tomorrow, I'd be the same, sane, responsible, moral person I've always been. Would I have faith in the rest of society to carry on civilly, respecting the rights of others? That's a HELL NO from me. If there was no government tomorrow, you bet I'd take steps to ensure me and my family were protected from "brainless loonies running amok." By the way, I presume you've seen the "Purge" movies?


so back to my original point, you believe it's moral for some people to rule over others & tell them what they can & can't do with threats of punishment if they refuse because as you said if they don't you have these brainless loonies running amok, the problem is these brainless loonies are still running amok. the government won't be there to help you if you get robbed or attacked or if your wife gets raped, they'll send their policy enforcers to investigate the mess, because when seconds count the cops will be there in minutes, that's where being able to defend yourself & others becomes a priority

I'm realistic enough to know that having a government and law enforcement has never stopped the existence of loonies and criminals. But in many cases, you can depend on law enforcement to right a wrong. Again, I use my judgement to tell me when I can defer to law enforcement, and when I have to take matters into my own hands.

Good discussion.

[TIC]

"You shouldn't do it to others." Sounds great, but unfortunately not everyone lives by that principle. Hence, the need for laws to dissuade them from violating that. By funding I presume you mean taxation. I feel that some sort of public funding is necessary for the very basic, core needs of a society, such as infrastructure. However, I'll admit that the implementation of taxation rules most of the time leaves a lot to be desired. Which is why people are pissed at politicians more often than not.

laws don’t dissuade everyone either. laws either take power away from an individual or transfer wealth. by funding i mainly mean taxation but without stealing from the people the government has nothing. they don’t produce anything, they are parasites living off the backs of others. if something can’t be funded voluntarily then it doesn’t need to be done. i’m sure aware that there was a time that the usa had no income tax. if people support something they will fund it if they feel it is necessary or benefits them, remember people crowd funding for trumps wall? just look at onlyfans, patreon, give a little, buy me a coffee et cetera, people will freely fund things they support

A company is maybe not the best analogy, but the fact remains that unless you work for yourself, independently... you'll be working for some sort of company. In a company you have rules. You may not agree with some of them. But in order to remain employed, you must follow them. Not only that, but you will have a boss. The boss decides on what you'll do, and will evaluate you. Sort of like a ruler, you might say. Yes... you can always leave a company. But in order to make a living (again, unless you work independently), you'll just have to go work for another company. You'll have another boss.

rules are not the same as a ruler. i live by my own rules everyday. the problem with your analogy is that it is voluntary, you are choosing to be there, you can opt out, yes you may have to make a living but there are plenty of ways to make money outside the system. you can’t opt out of government. a boss is not the same as a ruler, if your boss says you need to give me a percentage of your wage each week, you can walk out & find another way to make money, nothing will happen to you, there’ll be no punishment from the boss, if you avoid paying the governments demands they send people to collect, if you still refuse they will try to put you in a cage & if you try defend yourself from this theft they’ll kill you

I think you place too much emphasis on "people ruling over others and telling them what they can and can't do against their will, with threats of punishment." I prefer to think of government (if implemented correctly) as an organized way to provide the services needed by society (infrastructure, education, health services, national defense, etc.). I don't believe in a huge government that sticks its nose in matters that should not be its concern... so in that regard, I favor the Republican party point of view. The segregation of blacks? That wasn't a flaw in democracy. That was a huge flaw in humanity. Again... by and large I have very little faith in people's concept of right and wrong. Traffic laws and gun laws? Totally necessary, IMO. Left up to individual criteria, society would be a total mess of road rage, accidents left and right, and chaos. Gun laws are meant to put limits on people who can't discern between protecting your home and family, and wanting weapons of mass destruction. (Many times lacking the mental and emotional fortitude to have guns at all).

people ruling over others and telling them what they can and can't do against their will, with threats of punishment is exactly what it is. the government is just the middleman, they don’t build the roads, they are not the teachers, doctors or nurses or soldiers. as i mentioned before people will fund what they support & with free markets you get competition, example if you have a project at your house & you get five quotes from separate contractors, you can compare the prices, products, time frame, ideas et cetera & choose the best deal, with government it’s usually overpriced, poorly done, lengthy or in many cases not necessary. the blacks being segregated was regarding the declaration of independence saying all men are created equal but we can just look at slavery being legal being a flaw in democracy. traffic laws & gun laws shit all over the constitution. are you saying that without traffic laws you would be road raging & having accidents left & right? look at somewhere like india, their roads look like chaos to us but if you spend some time there you’ll see that as chaotic is it appears it works. A side story, there was an intersection in the uk i think, i can’t remember the name, it was notorious for accidents & problems at a high rate, anyway the government tried for years different things to improve it with no luck, eventually they ended up just taking down everything & just let people work it out for themselves & things improved by themselves. the gun laws in the usa were very lax until the blacks started arming themselves, do some research around black codes & the mulford act regarding the black panther party

If there was no government tomorrow, I'd be the same, sane, responsible, moral person I've always been. Would I have faith in the rest of society to carry on civilly, respecting the rights of others? That's a HELL NO from me. If there was no government tomorrow, you bet I'd take steps to ensure me and my family were protected from "brainless loonies running amok." By the way, I presume you've seen the "Purge" movies?

i would also be the same, sane, responsible, moral person I've always been & so would many of my friends & family, as I’m sure many of your friends & family would be as well & there would be many others, just like there is now. just because there is no government doesn’t mean everyone will then choose to do evil. we have already agreed that there will always be some that will choose to do evil, even with government so it seems strange to me that you don’t already take steps to protect yourself & your family

I'm realistic enough to know that having a government and law enforcement has never stopped the existence of loonies and criminals. But in many cases, you can depend on law enforcement to right a wrong. Again, I use my judgement to tell me when I can defer to law enforcement, and when I have to take matters into my own hands.

i just look at things like the knapp commission, the mollen commission, over here we had the wood royal commission, to see how full of shit law enforcement is. in many cases they create a wrong. i’m sure you’ve heard about the hundreds of people charged with a dui even after blowing triple zeros. they shot john hurley after he stopped a shooter & how can we forget the 376 cowardly uvalde officers, not one of them valued a child’s life over their own as few examples, you & i probably couldn’t even list all the examples of police corruption & incompetency

but yes, good discussion