The Reverse Punch

[bigragu]

good question. because traditional martial arts are a joke. People who defend them always cite their use as "a deadly weapon." BS. That's an excuse for them being ineffective otherwise. "Oh, but in self defense killing someone is ok." Yet another BS line. I'm sick of hearing it. Show me a kung fu guy or karate guy in the UFC. Again, they'll cite that it's true use is for killing, or whatever. Yeah, sure. Because killing people is something we can do on a daily basis.

excellent post....tell them "go ahead and keep your hands at your waist...and I'll break that jaw with my hands held high".... good for movies and cool action sequences...that is it..

[aries]

see, we keep hearing that very thing. If an mma guy tried to come in, which would HAVE TO be behind the jab, they'd get fookin destroyed. Like I said, we only ever see MEDIOCRE boxers in mma. If Roy Jones Jr had fought someone of his weight, he'd kill them.

How do you figure that? Have you ever heard of kicks? If the MMA guy came in he'd most likely just try and avoid punching range if he had any sense with the boxer and keep it at kicking range. He'd have to go through it at some point if he couldn't finish with kicks which is mostly unlikely but how would the boxer defend kicks?

Yeah we have only seen mediocre boxers in MMA but even a mediocre boxer could make it to the clinch with even RJJ. If that happened in MMA then it would be all over for RJJ.

[Von Milash]

RJJ would hit the guy 10x before he made it that far.

I'm sick of hearing how good mma guys are.

[JT Rock]

RJJ would hit the guy 10x before he made it that far.

I'm sick of hearing how good mma guys are.

Being a little shortsighted arent you Von So what your saying is that even the elite boxers cant be held or clinched... any athlete or fighter can initiate a clinch at smoe point in a fight... Specially taking a Roy who relies just on his hands and not his feet or knees.... IF that was the case than Championship Boxers would be salivating at a chance to take a payday in the cage with such inferior strikers...

[Heavy D]

They will be salivating when that payday exists. Hopefully it isnt too far away and we can see some huge names in boxing start transitioning to MMA.

My one big fear is that they don't take it seriously and try to come in with boxing alone, instead of learning to check the kicks and stuff a takedown.

[Von Milash]

no, jt. let's be honest, mma striking is AWEFUL. Anyone who watches both would agree. All I'm saying is that it's a hell of a lot harder to come in on a boxer than everyone thinks. People talk like they'd just roll over like turtles and not defend themselves.

[Von Milash]

They will be salivating when that payday exists. Hopefully it isnt too far away and we can see some huge names in boxing start transitioning to MMA.

My one big fear is that they don't take it seriously and try to come in with boxing alone, instead of learning to check the kicks and stuff a takedown.

I have this gut feeling that it'll be Shannon Briggs to make the first move to the UFC. 6'4", 235. God would I love to see him clean someone's clock.

MMA elites are big fish in small ponds.


Let me ask the mma proponents a simple question.......


back when Royce was dominating the UFC scene, do you really think he could have taken Tyson?? Tyson with 4oz gloves would have killed him. literally.

[Heavy D]

Although I'm on the boxing side, I almost think Tyson would be an "easier" matchup for Royce. Tyson relied VERY heavily on upper body movement to get inside and deliver the killer blows. I think this fight would be more of a coin toss than your traditional style boxer would be. It would basically depend on whether or not Tyson could drop Royce as Royce was going in. Maybe he would land that shot a majority of the time (and literally kill him with it, as you said). But it would basically always come down to that one moment when Royce tried to shoot on him, at least in my opinion.

But Ali would destroy Royce 9.5 times out of ten, in my opinion. He was the kind of boxer who uses footwork to avoid his opponents, and lure them into him, while destroying them with careful shots the whole time. Royce wouldnt be able to get his shot in, and hence would never stand a chance.

So like I said, Tyson would most likely win, and I would bet on him every time. But I wouldn't bet the house on him ever. Ali, maybe so, simply because grapplers tend to like the guys who come inside and work for the big punch to end it all. Ali wouldn't give him that.

[Von Milash]

pound for pound as good as royce was, I just don't see him having aNY chance. Tyson would only have to land one punch. people overlook how good tyson's jab was becasue he WAS an inside fighter...but that inside destruction was always against taller oponents. He wouldn't have had to fight Royce on the inside. He could have kept Royce back with the jab and simply looked to land that one shot that would have ended things instantly.

The guy I'd give the most chance to against Tyson would be Ken Shamrock, but only because he was so strong. I don't think Royce would have been strong enough to haul Tyson to the mat even if he COULD get in on Mike, but Shamrock had such super human strength. But again, all those mma guys, ever the greats, would still have to get past the boxers hands, and that's no so easy, IMO.

Again, we're talking the great boxers. Not the chump that transitioned to mma because their title shot was never coming.

[JT Rock]

you guys are just assuming Tyson could Stuff a shoot attempt... Royce alot of the times would use a Thai front kick and paw with it..... that way he could create enough distance and go for the shoot.... Have you ever been in a sparring session with someone who has nasty takedown skills? again you fail to realize a one dimensional grappler will beat a 1 dimensional striker more than 75% of the time its been proven numerous occasions... Thats why Royce Gracie, Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn, Mark Coleman, Mark Kerr, even a guy like Kevin Randleman were succesful early on was because they were excellent wrestlers and subission specialists that would eat Strikers up 9-10 times well over the past 10 years those guys havent been signifigant players in mma because the sport has evolved were yo cant be 1 dimensional.

The pure strikers can grapple now and the pure grapplers can strike you need to be more versatile to survive..... you can drop Roy jones or Mike Tyson in a cage this afternoon with either Royce Gracie, Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn, Mark Coleman, Mark Kerr or even Randleman and I will guarantee and even endorse over 3 months worth of paychecks that those grapplers will either ground and pound those two or sub them out....

[Heavy D]

[youtube=425,350]Tp5GUW70arE[/youtube]

Note that Frank never used his grappling skills, only his boxing, and about two kicks. If Shamrock can do this (essentially a wrestler who can strike a little) to a Gracie, why wouldn't Tyson be able to do the same thing?

[Heavy D]

Also, if you checked my message, I never said Tyson would stuff the shoot attempt. What I was saying is that he would either knock the guy out as he went for the shoot, or get taken down and lose. Hence my coin flip scenario.

A more traditional boxer would use his (much more effective than the front snap kick) jab to keep the grappler away. The way for strikers to beat grapplers is to jab jab jab jab jab jab jab and so on until the guy is rocked, then drop him quickly. If a striker commits too early, he is taken down and beaten. If he keeps working the jab or right cross without overcommitting to anything, he generally wins. Patience is key.

I'm not even a very good boxer, but in the backyard crap I do a lot (generally when under the influence :P ) I've beaten undefeated HS wrestlers all the time by doing just that. I just jab the hell out of them. Every time I can see they are rocked, I step in with a hard hook and hope for the best. I think I've lost 3 or 4 times to the better wrestlers from the area while winning maybe 14-15 times against them. Granted, this isn't exactly the greatest scenario, but as I said, I'm not even a terribly good boxer, and I'm very drunk when doing so, and often have fought 2 or 3 other people before them. If I can manage, why couldn't a pro?

[VictorCharlie]

I personally don't think RJJ could keep Matt Hughes/GSP/BJ Penn/Dan Henderson from getting the take down. As far as the age old discussion of how a world class boxer would fair against an equally talented MMA fighter in an MMA fight, well I personally believe that the boxers one dimensional fighting style simply dooms them most of the time and conversely I can't think of a single MMA fighter that I'd give any more than a punchers chance in a boxing match. I also feel that what works in traditional boxing(stance, defense, punching etc) do not directly correlate to MMA success. Great take down defense is something that takes a lot of work. If you dont' work on a great sprawl a good wrestler will put you on your back time and time again. You dont need to get that close(clinch) to use a good single and double leg take down, and in MMA they are quite often set up with strikes(albeit not usually effective). I usually like to pump a double jab then shoot in for a take down. I don't throw the punches b/c I think they are going to hurt my opponent, only to give me that split second I need to shoot. If you look at KO's that come on fighters shooting in, its almost always a knee not a punch that ends the fight. On a different note I think the typical statement of how sloppy and atrocious MMA punching is misguided. MMA is striking and boxing is punching. Although marginally similar they are not the same thing. I will agree that MMA striking is not nearly as technical as boxing but this is due to the gloves and variety of MMA. Its like comparing softball and baseball. Similar sports but with some very different aspects. Due to the variety of strikes available to a MMA fighter and the neccesity for takedown defense it is going to look vastly different. I'd quickly admit that boxers are the world experts on the best way to throw and setup a punch, but I think it also safe to say that the techniques used in the two sports for striking/punching have some large differences.

[Von Milash]

Van,

Gomi, who's widely considered the best 170lb fighter the MMA game has ever seen, just got his face handed to him by a guy who couldn't last 2rounds with even an average journeyman boxer, but who can actually throw a jab and a 1-2. So what makes you think that it would be different with a boxer who is actually GREAT? Like I've said time afte ttime, it all starts with, and distills down to boxing. Look at Antonio Tarver. 175lb. Do you honestly think a 175lb MMA guy could take him down? Tarver is string too. Diaz's hands were too potent for Gomi and his hands aren't a fraction as potent as a guy like Tarver or RJJ. For example, do you really thin that diaz could punch with Tarver, and do you really think that Diaz would be even strong enough to take him down? Never.

Ah, I missed this argument with ya.

[Von Milash]

[youtube=425,350]Tp5GUW70arE[/youtube]

Note that Frank never used his grappling skills, only his boxing, and about two kicks. If Shamrock can do this (essentially a wrestler who can strike a little) to a Gracie, why wouldn't Tyson be able to do the same thing?

D, your argument is fundamentally flawed. It wouldn't have taken Tyson that long to end it. lol