Rafael Marquez closing in on the 'top 3'?

[Kev]

Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are.

I would dispute that. The weight differences between the lower weights remains the same as a percentage of body weight, for example there is a 7lb jump between light welter to full welter but only 5 lbs from lightweight to light welter.

With the lower weights the actual lb difference is even less about 2 or 3 lbs for the lowest weights so the percentage as a bodyweight remains the same.

Pacqiao started out at 106 lbs and has climbed 6 divisions, Morales has climbed 5, Barrera 5, Guzman 3 etc.

Marquez climbing one division in his entire career is actually no more impressive than Cotto, Hatton, Judah, Spinks and a host of others in fact I'd say it was a minimum requirement for any smaller fighter to fufill in order to even be considered for the top 10 p4p.

[p4pking]

Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are.

I would dispute that. The weight differences between the lower weights remains the same as a percentage of body weight, for example there is a 7lb jump between light welter to full welter but only 5 lbs from lightweight to light welter.

With the lower weights the actual lb difference is even less about 2 or 3 lbs for the lowest weights so the percentage as a bodyweight remains the same.

Pacqiao started out at 106 lbs and has climbed 6 divisions, Morales has climbed 5, Barrera 5, Guzman 3 etc.

Marquez climbing one division in his entire career is actually no more impressive than Cotto, Hatton, Judah, Spinks and a host of others in fact I'd say it was a minimum requirement for any smaller fighter to fufill in order to even be considered for the top 10 p4p.

Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? 4 lbs was enough to turn him from an amazing p4p fighter to someone who couldn't beat the elite. Either way, it is more difficult imo. Pac, or Morales, moved up weight divisions because they turned pro extremely young, and had to move up because their bodies were still growing. When did Pac fight at 106?? 17 years old? And Guzman isn't exactly a great example to use. He had great KO power at featherweight, yet 4 lbs higher, he doesn't, whatsoever... And look at the examples you use to compare Marquez move up. Hatton? He moved up 7 lbs and (imo), lost, to a fighter who was not elite. Cotto, yeah he moved up, but it was more due to him not being able to make 140 anymore(like Morales or Pac)... And he still hasn't beat a good welterweight..Judah? meh... Spinks size really wasn't a big issue he had 0 power and it was more that he matched up well with Zab. Spinks, only moved up 1 div but like Cotto, hasn't fought any real elite fighter at the weight... Karmazin also rocked him bad a couple times. Just don't see the examples you do to suggest moving up isn't more difficult the lower weight you fight at.. Even if you want to go by percentage.

[Kev]

Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are.

I would dispute that. The weight differences between the lower weights remains the same as a percentage of body weight, for example there is a 7lb jump between light welter to full welter but only 5 lbs from lightweight to light welter.

With the lower weights the actual lb difference is even less about 2 or 3 lbs for the lowest weights so the percentage as a bodyweight remains the same.

Pacqiao started out at 106 lbs and has climbed 6 divisions, Morales has climbed 5, Barrera 5, Guzman 3 etc.

Marquez climbing one division in his entire career is actually no more impressive than Cotto, Hatton, Judah, Spinks and a host of others in fact I'd say it was a minimum requirement for any smaller fighter to fufill in order to even be considered for the top 10 p4p.

Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? 4 lbs was enough to turn him from an amazing p4p fighter to someone who couldn't beat the elite. Either way, it is more difficult imo. Pac, or Morales, moved up weight divisions because they turned pro extremely young, and had to move up because their bodies were still growing. When did Pac fight at 106?? 17 years old? And Guzman isn't exactly a great example to use. He had great KO power at featherweight, yet 4 lbs higher, he doesn't, whatsoever... And look at the examples you use to compare Marquez move up. Hatton? He moved up 7 lbs and (imo), lost, to a fighter who was not elite. Cotto, yeah he moved up, but it was more due to him not being able to make 140 anymore(like Morales or Pac)... And he still hasn't beat a good welterweight..Judah? meh... Spinks size really wasn't a big issue he had 0 power and it was more that he matched up well with Zab. Spinks, only moved up 1 div but like Cotto, hasn't fought any real elite fighter at the weight... Karmazin also rocked him bad a couple times. Just don't see the examples you do to suggest moving up isn't more difficult the lower weight you fight at.. Even if you want to go by percentage.

It's not more difficult to move from bantamweight to super bantamweight than it is to move from light welter to welter!

Everybody has a tipping point and a natural bodyweight beyond which they can't succesfully move up, for example for Barrera, Pacquaio and Morales the 130 lb super featherweight limit is about as far as they can go but to conclude from that that it's harder to move from Super feather to lightweight than from another two weight classes makes no sense at all, it just depends on the individual! Mayweather found the transition easy for example.

I'm not saying being a multiple weight champion at the lower weight is easy but it's no different than moving up through the weights in any weight class, the weights are carefully calculated that way.

For example you don't have to add 7 lbs to go from bantam to super bantam you just need to add 4 lbs so the increase in bodyweight as a percentage is exactly the same.

Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? Yes and so what? Ever heard of Ricky Hatton? :P Some people just ain't cut out for moving through the divisions!

Hopkins moved up two divisions (15 lbs) in one go and beat the man at 175 lb. Thats a bigger feat than moving up one division and 4 lbs any way you look at it.

[Kev]

Oh and just boxrec'd Wilfredo Gomez. He won world titles in 3 weight classes so hardly a good example of your point :P

[p4pking]

Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are.

I would dispute that. The weight differences between the lower weights remains the same as a percentage of body weight, for example there is a 7lb jump between light welter to full welter but only 5 lbs from lightweight to light welter.

With the lower weights the actual lb difference is even less about 2 or 3 lbs for the lowest weights so the percentage as a bodyweight remains the same.

Pacqiao started out at 106 lbs and has climbed 6 divisions, Morales has climbed 5, Barrera 5, Guzman 3 etc.

Marquez climbing one division in his entire career is actually no more impressive than Cotto, Hatton, Judah, Spinks and a host of others in fact I'd say it was a minimum requirement for any smaller fighter to fufill in order to even be considered for the top 10 p4p.

Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? 4 lbs was enough to turn him from an amazing p4p fighter to someone who couldn't beat the elite. Either way, it is more difficult imo. Pac, or Morales, moved up weight divisions because they turned pro extremely young, and had to move up because their bodies were still growing. When did Pac fight at 106?? 17 years old? And Guzman isn't exactly a great example to use. He had great KO power at featherweight, yet 4 lbs higher, he doesn't, whatsoever... And look at the examples you use to compare Marquez move up. Hatton? He moved up 7 lbs and (imo), lost, to a fighter who was not elite. Cotto, yeah he moved up, but it was more due to him not being able to make 140 anymore(like Morales or Pac)... And he still hasn't beat a good welterweight..Judah? meh... Spinks size really wasn't a big issue he had 0 power and it was more that he matched up well with Zab. Spinks, only moved up 1 div but like Cotto, hasn't fought any real elite fighter at the weight... Karmazin also rocked him bad a couple times. Just don't see the examples you do to suggest moving up isn't more difficult the lower weight you fight at.. Even if you want to go by percentage.

It's not more difficult to move from bantamweight to super bantamweight than it is to move from light welter to welter!

Everybody has a tipping point and a natural bodyweight beyond which they can't succesfully move up, for example for Barrera, Pacquaio and Morales the 130 lb super featherweight limit is about as far as they can go but to conclude from that that it's harder to move from Super feather to lightweight than from another two weight classes makes no sense at all, it just depends on the individual! Mayweather found the transition easy for example.

I'm not saying being a multiple weight champion at the lower weight is easy but it's no different than moving up through the weights in any weight class, the weights are carefully calculated that way.

For example you don't have to add 7 lbs to go from bantam to super bantam you just need to add 4 lbs so the increase in bodyweight as a percentage is exactly the same.

Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? Yes and so what? Ever heard of Ricky Hatton? :P Some people just ain't cut out for moving through the divisions!

Hopkins moved up two divisions (15 lbs) in one go and beat the man at 175 lb. Thats a bigger feat than moving up one division and 4 lbs any way you look at it.

You may be right, though it's questionable, but even still, it all depends on the fighter, over the amoutnof weight a fighter moved up. In other words, moving up 15 lbs to beat Tarver was impressive, but Tarver was not even in shape for that fight and himself lost over 25 lbs to make the fight...Yes, he was the man at the division, but are you going to imply that the LHW division was strong at the time, or now?? Not at all. Hopkins moving up 15 lbs to fight Tarver would not have been nearly as impressive as his moving up 8 lbs to fight Calzaghe, in mine and many others opinions... It all depends on the fighter. Basically, I think you are underrating Vasquez, which is a point you still haven't adressed...

[Kev]

Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are.

I would dispute that. The weight differences between the lower weights remains the same as a percentage of body weight, for example there is a 7lb jump between light welter to full welter but only 5 lbs from lightweight to light welter.

With the lower weights the actual lb difference is even less about 2 or 3 lbs for the lowest weights so the percentage as a bodyweight remains the same.

Pacqiao started out at 106 lbs and has climbed 6 divisions, Morales has climbed 5, Barrera 5, Guzman 3 etc.

Marquez climbing one division in his entire career is actually no more impressive than Cotto, Hatton, Judah, Spinks and a host of others in fact I'd say it was a minimum requirement for any smaller fighter to fufill in order to even be considered for the top 10 p4p.

Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? 4 lbs was enough to turn him from an amazing p4p fighter to someone who couldn't beat the elite. Either way, it is more difficult imo. Pac, or Morales, moved up weight divisions because they turned pro extremely young, and had to move up because their bodies were still growing. When did Pac fight at 106?? 17 years old? And Guzman isn't exactly a great example to use. He had great KO power at featherweight, yet 4 lbs higher, he doesn't, whatsoever... And look at the examples you use to compare Marquez move up. Hatton? He moved up 7 lbs and (imo), lost, to a fighter who was not elite. Cotto, yeah he moved up, but it was more due to him not being able to make 140 anymore(like Morales or Pac)... And he still hasn't beat a good welterweight..Judah? meh... Spinks size really wasn't a big issue he had 0 power and it was more that he matched up well with Zab. Spinks, only moved up 1 div but like Cotto, hasn't fought any real elite fighter at the weight... Karmazin also rocked him bad a couple times. Just don't see the examples you do to suggest moving up isn't more difficult the lower weight you fight at.. Even if you want to go by percentage.

It's not more difficult to move from bantamweight to super bantamweight than it is to move from light welter to welter!

Everybody has a tipping point and a natural bodyweight beyond which they can't succesfully move up, for example for Barrera, Pacquaio and Morales the 130 lb super featherweight limit is about as far as they can go but to conclude from that that it's harder to move from Super feather to lightweight than from another two weight classes makes no sense at all, it just depends on the individual! Mayweather found the transition easy for example.

I'm not saying being a multiple weight champion at the lower weight is easy but it's no different than moving up through the weights in any weight class, the weights are carefully calculated that way.

For example you don't have to add 7 lbs to go from bantam to super bantam you just need to add 4 lbs so the increase in bodyweight as a percentage is exactly the same.

Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? Yes and so what? Ever heard of Ricky Hatton? :P Some people just ain't cut out for moving through the divisions!

Hopkins moved up two divisions (15 lbs) in one go and beat the man at 175 lb. Thats a bigger feat than moving up one division and 4 lbs any way you look at it.

You may be right, though it's questionable, but even still, it all depends on the fighter, over the amoutnof weight a fighter moved up. In other words, moving up 15 lbs to beat Tarver was impressive, but Tarver was not even in shape for that fight and himself lost over 25 lbs to make the fight...Yes, he was the man at the division, but are you going to imply that the LHW division was strong at the time, or now?? Not at all. Hopkins moving up 15 lbs to fight Tarver would not have been nearly as impressive as his moving up 8 lbs to fight Calzaghe, in mine and many others opinions... It all depends on the fighter. Basically, I think you are underrating Vasquez, which is a point you still haven't adressed...

Believe me I'm not underatting Vazquez I rate him really, but he's on a level with guys like Coralles, Zab Judah, Cory Spinks etc. If you want to be in the top 10 p4p you HAVE to beat those guys!

And thats not underating Vazquez at all. If you think that then you are underatting the top three guys I mentioned above who have ALL achieved more in their careers than Vazquez, all three have been undisputed champions and all three have ruled two weight divisions, something which Vazquez has not done.

[p4pking]

Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are.

I would dispute that. The weight differences between the lower weights remains the same as a percentage of body weight, for example there is a 7lb jump between light welter to full welter but only 5 lbs from lightweight to light welter.

With the lower weights the actual lb difference is even less about 2 or 3 lbs for the lowest weights so the percentage as a bodyweight remains the same.

Pacqiao started out at 106 lbs and has climbed 6 divisions, Morales has climbed 5, Barrera 5, Guzman 3 etc.

Marquez climbing one division in his entire career is actually no more impressive than Cotto, Hatton, Judah, Spinks and a host of others in fact I'd say it was a minimum requirement for any smaller fighter to fufill in order to even be considered for the top 10 p4p.

Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? 4 lbs was enough to turn him from an amazing p4p fighter to someone who couldn't beat the elite. Either way, it is more difficult imo. Pac, or Morales, moved up weight divisions because they turned pro extremely young, and had to move up because their bodies were still growing. When did Pac fight at 106?? 17 years old? And Guzman isn't exactly a great example to use. He had great KO power at featherweight, yet 4 lbs higher, he doesn't, whatsoever... And look at the examples you use to compare Marquez move up. Hatton? He moved up 7 lbs and (imo), lost, to a fighter who was not elite. Cotto, yeah he moved up, but it was more due to him not being able to make 140 anymore(like Morales or Pac)... And he still hasn't beat a good welterweight..Judah? meh... Spinks size really wasn't a big issue he had 0 power and it was more that he matched up well with Zab. Spinks, only moved up 1 div but like Cotto, hasn't fought any real elite fighter at the weight... Karmazin also rocked him bad a couple times. Just don't see the examples you do to suggest moving up isn't more difficult the lower weight you fight at.. Even if you want to go by percentage.

It's not more difficult to move from bantamweight to super bantamweight than it is to move from light welter to welter!

Everybody has a tipping point and a natural bodyweight beyond which they can't succesfully move up, for example for Barrera, Pacquaio and Morales the 130 lb super featherweight limit is about as far as they can go but to conclude from that that it's harder to move from Super feather to lightweight than from another two weight classes makes no sense at all, it just depends on the individual! Mayweather found the transition easy for example.

I'm not saying being a multiple weight champion at the lower weight is easy but it's no different than moving up through the weights in any weight class, the weights are carefully calculated that way.

For example you don't have to add 7 lbs to go from bantam to super bantam you just need to add 4 lbs so the increase in bodyweight as a percentage is exactly the same.

Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? Yes and so what? Ever heard of Ricky Hatton? :P Some people just ain't cut out for moving through the divisions!

Hopkins moved up two divisions (15 lbs) in one go and beat the man at 175 lb. Thats a bigger feat than moving up one division and 4 lbs any way you look at it.

You may be right, though it's questionable, but even still, it all depends on the fighter, over the amoutnof weight a fighter moved up. In other words, moving up 15 lbs to beat Tarver was impressive, but Tarver was not even in shape for that fight and himself lost over 25 lbs to make the fight...Yes, he was the man at the division, but are you going to imply that the LHW division was strong at the time, or now?? Not at all. Hopkins moving up 15 lbs to fight Tarver would not have been nearly as impressive as his moving up 8 lbs to fight Calzaghe, in mine and many others opinions... It all depends on the fighter. Basically, I think you are underrating Vasquez, which is a point you still haven't adressed...

Believe me I'm not underatting Vazquez I rate him really, but he's on a level with guys like Coralles, Zab Judah, Cory Spinks etc. If you want to be in the top 10 p4p you HAVE to beat those guys!

And thats not underating Vazquez at all. If you think that then you are underatting the top three guys I mentioned above who have ALL achieved more in their careers than Vazquez, all three have been undisputed champions and all three have ruled two weight divisions, something which Vazquez has not done.

Well that basically brings us back to my original point, whether you regard achievements higher than physical skill at an elite level... Hell, CC Bilbo, great debate, can't think of anyting that would turn the tide in my favour definetively...

[CutMeMick]

I mean look at Cotto. Surely this guy has every bit the talent and potential that Marquez has? But he's yet to really get into the top 10 p4p at all. If he beats Judah, who is on a par with Vazquez it won't leap him to number 3, and remember Cotto has just moved up, same as Marquez.

Judahs NOT the man to beat at Welter. unless you have Judah in your P4P rankings now?
Cotto moved up and beat Quintana for a vacant belt.
Marquez moved up and beat an established champ.

[Kev]

Especially since he fights at a low weight division, which not only does not receive the same attention and therefore mega fights as higher div's, in addition, it is much more difficult to successfully move up divisions, the smaller you are.

I would dispute that. The weight differences between the lower weights remains the same as a percentage of body weight, for example there is a 7lb jump between light welter to full welter but only 5 lbs from lightweight to light welter.

With the lower weights the actual lb difference is even less about 2 or 3 lbs for the lowest weights so the percentage as a bodyweight remains the same.

Pacqiao started out at 106 lbs and has climbed 6 divisions, Morales has climbed 5, Barrera 5, Guzman 3 etc.

Marquez climbing one division in his entire career is actually no more impressive than Cotto, Hatton, Judah, Spinks and a host of others in fact I'd say it was a minimum requirement for any smaller fighter to fufill in order to even be considered for the top 10 p4p.

Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? 4 lbs was enough to turn him from an amazing p4p fighter to someone who couldn't beat the elite. Either way, it is more difficult imo. Pac, or Morales, moved up weight divisions because they turned pro extremely young, and had to move up because their bodies were still growing. When did Pac fight at 106?? 17 years old? And Guzman isn't exactly a great example to use. He had great KO power at featherweight, yet 4 lbs higher, he doesn't, whatsoever... And look at the examples you use to compare Marquez move up. Hatton? He moved up 7 lbs and (imo), lost, to a fighter who was not elite. Cotto, yeah he moved up, but it was more due to him not being able to make 140 anymore(like Morales or Pac)... And he still hasn't beat a good welterweight..Judah? meh... Spinks size really wasn't a big issue he had 0 power and it was more that he matched up well with Zab. Spinks, only moved up 1 div but like Cotto, hasn't fought any real elite fighter at the weight... Karmazin also rocked him bad a couple times. Just don't see the examples you do to suggest moving up isn't more difficult the lower weight you fight at.. Even if you want to go by percentage.

It's not more difficult to move from bantamweight to super bantamweight than it is to move from light welter to welter!

Everybody has a tipping point and a natural bodyweight beyond which they can't succesfully move up, for example for Barrera, Pacquaio and Morales the 130 lb super featherweight limit is about as far as they can go but to conclude from that that it's harder to move from Super feather to lightweight than from another two weight classes makes no sense at all, it just depends on the individual! Mayweather found the transition easy for example.

I'm not saying being a multiple weight champion at the lower weight is easy but it's no different than moving up through the weights in any weight class, the weights are carefully calculated that way.

For example you don't have to add 7 lbs to go from bantam to super bantam you just need to add 4 lbs so the increase in bodyweight as a percentage is exactly the same.

Ever heard of Wilfredo Gomez? Yes and so what? Ever heard of Ricky Hatton? :P Some people just ain't cut out for moving through the divisions!

Hopkins moved up two divisions (15 lbs) in one go and beat the man at 175 lb. Thats a bigger feat than moving up one division and 4 lbs any way you look at it.

You may be right, though it's questionable, but even still, it all depends on the fighter, over the amoutnof weight a fighter moved up. In other words, moving up 15 lbs to beat Tarver was impressive, but Tarver was not even in shape for that fight and himself lost over 25 lbs to make the fight...Yes, he was the man at the division, but are you going to imply that the LHW division was strong at the time, or now?? Not at all. Hopkins moving up 15 lbs to fight Tarver would not have been nearly as impressive as his moving up 8 lbs to fight Calzaghe, in mine and many others opinions... It all depends on the fighter. Basically, I think you are underrating Vasquez, which is a point you still haven't adressed...

Believe me I'm not underatting Vazquez I rate him really, but he's on a level with guys like Coralles, Zab Judah, Cory Spinks etc. If you want to be in the top 10 p4p you HAVE to beat those guys!

And thats not underating Vazquez at all. If you think that then you are underatting the top three guys I mentioned above who have ALL achieved more in their careers than Vazquez, all three have been undisputed champions and all three have ruled two weight divisions, something which Vazquez has not done.

Well that basically brings us back to my original point, whether you regard achievements higher than physical skill at an elite level... Hell, CC Bilbo, great debate, can't think of anyting that would turn the tide in my favour definetively...

returned mate, a good debate is good for the mind I think.

[Kev]

I mean look at Cotto. Surely this guy has every bit the talent and potential that Marquez has? But he's yet to really get into the top 10 p4p at all. If he beats Judah, who is on a par with Vazquez it won't leap him to number 3, and remember Cotto has just moved up, same as Marquez.

Judahs NOT the man to beat at Welter. unless you have Judah in your P4P rankings now?
Cotto moved up and beat Quintana for a vacant belt.
Marquez moved up and beat an established champ.

Yes I agree but Judah WAS once the man at welter. Plus I was using that as an example that Cotto even if does beat Judah easily in no way surges to number 3 p4p!

Anyway Tarver was THE man at light heavy and Hopkins moved up two divisions to beat him :P

Vazquez is on a par with Coralles, Judah, Spinks etc as I said above. There is no argument that convince otherwise, just look at his record. How is he better than Coralles? What has he done more than Zab Judah? Or Cory?

Nothing, he's a great fighter, very exciting to watch but comes up short in the big fights. Larios stopped him too remember, I know he got him back but that puts him in the same class as a Coralles level fighter.

I don't see how beating Vazquez makes anyone p4p number 3 any more than Coralles?

[CutMeMick]

Yes I agree but Judah WAS once the man at welter.

Was is past tense it means NOTHING now...

Plus I was using that as an example that Cotto even if does beat Judah easily in no way surges to number 3 p4p!

Of course Cotto beating Judah would not leap him to #3 thats cause Judahs barely makes top 10 Welters. nevermind P4P.....

Anyway Tarver was THE man at light heavy and Hopkins moved up two divisions to beat him :P

You are right Tarver was the man at LH but you also gotta remember B-Hop was coming off 2 back to back loses.

Vazquez is on a par with Coralles, Judah, Spinks etc as I said above. There is no argument that convince otherwise, just look at his record. How is he better than Coralles? What has he done more than Zab Judah? Or Cory?

Hes better then them cause he was able to reign as Champ. and the Ring champ.
I don't think Corrales, Judah or Cory were Ring champs if memory serves me right......

Well Bilbo as we say around here agree to disagree....

[Kev]

Yes I agree but Judah WAS once the man at welter.

Was is past tense it means NOTHING now...

Plus I was using that as an example that Cotto even if does beat Judah easily in no way surges to number 3 p4p!

Of course Cotto beating Judah would not leap him to #3 thats cause Judahs barely makes top 10 Welters. nevermind P4P.....

Anyway Tarver was THE man at light heavy and Hopkins moved up two divisions to beat him :P

You are right Tarver was the man at LH but you also gotta remember B-Hop was coming off 2 back to back loses.

Vazquez is on a par with Coralles, Judah, Spinks etc as I said above. There is no argument that convince otherwise, just look at his record. How is he better than Coralles? What has he done more than Zab Judah? Or Cory?

Hes better then them cause he was able to reign as Champ. and the Ring champ.
I don't think Corrales, Judah or Cory were Ring champs if memory serves me right......

Well Bilbo as we say around here agree to disagree....

Just let me ask you this.....

If all the fighters weighed the same and could compete in a theoretical p4p matchup do you honestly see Vazquez beating any of the following?

Mayweather,
Wright,
Paquiao,
Barrera,
Hopkins,
Calzaghe,
Taylor

You know as well as I do that if they all weighed the same all of those fighters would have beaten Vazquez just as easily as Marquez.

Beating Vazquez, however emphatically does not make somone a top 3 p4p fighter. Marquez is about 7 or 8 p4p.

As I said before thats where the Ring rank him and I agree completely.

[Violent Demise]

Yes I agree but Judah WAS once the man at welter.

Was is past tense it means NOTHING now...

Plus I was using that as an example that Cotto even if does beat Judah easily in no way surges to number 3 p4p!

Of course Cotto beating Judah would not leap him to #3 thats cause Judahs barely makes top 10 Welters. nevermind P4P.....

Anyway Tarver was THE man at light heavy and Hopkins moved up two divisions to beat him :P

You are right Tarver was the man at LH but you also gotta remember B-Hop was coming off 2 back to back loses.

Vazquez is on a par with Coralles, Judah, Spinks etc as I said above. There is no argument that convince otherwise, just look at his record. How is he better than Coralles? What has he done more than Zab Judah? Or Cory?

Hes better then them cause he was able to reign as Champ. and the Ring champ.
I don't think Corrales, Judah or Cory were Ring champs if memory serves me right......

Well Bilbo as we say around here agree to disagree....

Just let me ask you this.....

If all the fighters weighed the same and could compete in a theoretical p4p matchup do you honestly see Vazquez beating any of the following?

Mayweather,
Wright,
Paquiao,
Barrera,
Hopkins,
Calzaghe,
Taylor

You know as well as I do that if they all weighed the same all of those fighters would have beaten Vazquez just as easily as Marquez.

Beating Vazquez, however emphatically does not make somone a top 3 p4p fighter. Marquez is about 7 or 8 p4p.

As I said before thats where the Ring rank him and I agree completely.

I see Vazquez walking right through Calzaghe. But he would lose against the rest.

[El Gamo]

It does not matter how you look at P4P: Based on accomplishments,based on skills,based on one ha sbeaten,Rafa is top 3. P4P,his accomplishments are better than Winky's imo. All the RING fighters he has beaten,2 legends(austin and Johnson), Vazquez who is easily P4P top 15,stopping most of these quality fighters on the way,thats a heck of an achievement.I'll add more later.