Jack Johnson vs Gene Tunney

[Taeth]

Its actually kind of hard to say when was prime Jack Johnson because he fought for so long.

Tunney's prime was after Johnson got back in the ring after his legal issues,long after his prime,his prime was more 1910-1920

Johnson would have been 32 in 1910, are you sure his prime was not before that?

[Trainer Monkey]

Its actually kind of hard to say when was prime Jack Johnson because he fought for so long.

Tunney's prime was after Johnson got back in the ring after his legal issues,long after his prime,his prime was more 1910-1920

Johnson would have been 32 in 1910, are you sure his prime was not before that?

You could make a case it started in 1905,but he allways had a title from then until the Willard loss in 1915,and didnt lose again in that decade

[Taeth]

well not to deviate, but Jim Brown with current weight lifting and training practices would still be one of the greatest RB's of all time.....5.2 yds per carry for a career and a 104.3 yds per game is pretty damn impressive against any competition....I'll tell you who is underated though is Gale Sayers...w/o the knee injuries he might have rewritten all of the records

Not when your as big as the linemen of the time. People keep on saying using current training, and weight lifting, but a lot of the stuff they do the same as they always did. Mayweather trains old school, and he still brings a new form of athlete, same with Roy JOnes Jr. he was a farm boy, and he learnt how to box from his dad, but his core strength and everything wasn't built through weight lifting, but through doing pushups, sit ups, etc. He didn't even do weightlifting until he went up to heavyweight. Better athletes are being born at a higher percentage as time progresses. THere are a few exceptions along the way Robinson, Ali, Chamberlain, OJ Simpson, Brown etc. who were before their time.

[VictorCharlie]

Look man my pops and two uncles all played DI college football in the late 50's and early 60's, and one uncle would have been drafted had he not blown out his knee. They all attest that weight lifting and speed training was not done and this is at Oklahoma State University/Missipi State University not some scrub school. Hell my pops says that water wasn't allowed at practice so that players got tough. His senior year they got to have ice during practice, and that was a huge deal. Of my 3 close friends who played DI football they all had big gains in just about every athletic characteristic over their 5 years in college. A typical DI college prospect gains 10-20(lineman sometimes gain even more) pounds of muscle during a college career and sees big improvements in speed and strength. The science of improving athletes speed, strength, agility etc has come leaps and bounds since Jim Brown played ball. It is almost sickening the efforts even at the HS level (in Tx at least) that players go through to chop a tenth of a second off their 40 time or add an inch to their vertical. After the OC and DC most HC will tell you that their strength/conditioning coach is the most important guy on staff. There really isn't a correlation between training in boxing and football. No boxer would want to carry around the type of bulk and muscle required for the power and fast twitch muscle needed in football. I dont recall seeing 40 yd dash times, bench press and squats listed under any boxer's stats. Would Jim Brown have such awesome stats had he played in the 90's to present? Maybe not, but he would still be at the top of the list somewhere hands down.

[Taeth]

Yoh its not just the science. PEOPLE ARE becoming better athletes. The 100,200 meters are being broken all the time, and sports atheltes are getting bigger, stronger, faster. I agree lifting improves on that, but my point with Roy Jones Jr. is that people are becoming better athletes regardless of superior training.

[Trainer Monkey]

Yoh its not just the science. PEOPLE ARE becoming better athletes. The 100,200 meters are being broken all the time, and sports atheltes are getting bigger, stronger, faster. I agree lifting improves on that, but my point with Roy Jones Jr. is that people are becoming better athletes regardless of superior training.

But again Johnson wasnt just a superior athlete for his time,his figures match THIS time favourably
He had plenty of size weight,and speed and build to compete in any era

[Kev]

Yoh its not just the science. PEOPLE ARE becoming better athletes. The 100,200 meters are being broken all the time, and sports atheltes are getting bigger, stronger, faster. I agree lifting improves on that, but my point with Roy Jones Jr. is that people are becoming better athletes regardless of superior training.

Mate PEOPLE arn't getting fitter or stronger. The vast majority of the population in America and the UK at least are fatter and more unhealthy than they were a 100 years ago.

As for athletics that has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with the greater quality of life we enjoy now allowing for a talented individual to devote themselves full time to the sport of their choosing, to have the best possible diet, trainers and sports supplements etc.

And anyway the 100 & 200 metre records arnt' being broken all the time. The last current record holder is Justin Gatlin got an 8 year ban for testing positive for steroids, same as Ben Johnson did, same as Tim Montgomery

[Mr140]

think my theard has gone off topic but after reading every reply i still go with tunney winning.

[rob7022000]

Firstly, CC to everbody who took part in this thread . It has been the most fun thread that I have read here in a long time.

I disagree with the few posts describing Jack Johnson as small. I remember visiting a web page listing the stats of all the linear heavyweight champions for height, weight, reach, neck girth etc. Jack Johnson's stats were amongst the most impressive.

To describe Jack Johnson as a "defensive fighter" is like calling a ferrari that is stuck in traffick a "slow car". He was so superior to his opposition that he used to play with them and the sporting crowd did not want to see Jack completely destroy opponents, so i don't think we ever got to see the best of him.

In terms of his fighting style, no doubt he would be very adaptable due to his build. Stocky fighters like Tyson,Frazier and Marciano can only fight one way due to their physical limitations. Johnson didn't have any physical limitations. He was the perfect build for a fighter.

I will further support Bilbo's assertion that Jack Johnson could adapt mordern techniques and strategies(By the way Bilbo you get a CC for your arguments ). After he retired he worked with several top fighters. How do you think Max Schmeling beat the unbeatable Joe Louis?

I admit that I am biased, as Jack Johnson is my favourite sportsman ever. I pick Jack Johnson to totally outclass Tunney and end the fight whenever he wanted.

Styles make fights and I only see a pre prison Ali, pre prison Tyson being able to beat him. None of the other stand up straight fighters mentioned in the other posts would be able to beat him.

Chris, i diisagreed with some of your arguments, but you argued them so well and supported them with examples that you earned your CC .

[Taeth]

Yoh its not just the science. PEOPLE ARE becoming better athletes. The 100,200 meters are being broken all the time, and sports atheltes are getting bigger, stronger, faster. I agree lifting improves on that, but my point with Roy Jones Jr. is that people are becoming better athletes regardless of superior training.

Mate PEOPLE arn't getting fitter or stronger. The vast majority of the population in America and the UK at least are fatter and more unhealthy than they were a 100 years ago.

As for athletics that has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with the greater quality of life we enjoy now allowing for a talented individual to devote themselves full time to the sport of their choosing, to have the best possible diet, trainers and sports supplements etc.

And anyway the 100 & 200 metre records arnt' being broken all the time. The last current record holder is Justin Gatlin got an 8 year ban for testing positive for steroids, same as Ben Johnson did, same as Tim Montgomery

DO you follow track? If not then you don't know what your talking about because people have been breaking records the past few years at both distances. It is not just the greater quality of life that is making these athletes... Its the fact that the children of two good athletes are often better than their parents. One of the ways humans evolve(I've taken this in anthropology) is by becoming superior in each successive generation. There are kids who are getting fat because of the over abundance of food, but that doesn't mean they not more athletic than their skinnier parents. It just means they didn't work as hard.

Anyways getting back to the point Tunney was too slick for Johnson.

[ICB]

Firstly, CC to everbody who took part in this thread . It has been the most fun thread that I have read here in a long time.

I disagree with the few posts describing Jack Johnson as small. I remember visiting a web page listing the stats of all the linear heavyweight champions for height, weight, reach, neck girth etc. Jack Johnson's stats were amongst the most impressive.

To describe Jack Johnson as a "defensive fighter" is like calling a ferrari that is stuck in traffick a "slow car". He was so superior to his opposition that he used to play with them and the sporting crowd did not want to see Jack completely destroy opponents, so i don't think we ever got to see the best of him.

In terms of his fighting style, no doubt he would be very adaptable due to his build. Stocky fighters like Tyson,Frazier and Marciano can only fight one way due to their physical limitations. Johnson didn't have any physical limitations. He was the perfect build for a fighter.

I will further support Bilbo's assertion that Jack Johnson could adapt mordern techniques and strategies(By the way Bilbo you get a CC for your arguments ). After he retired he worked with several top fighters. How do you think Max Schmeling beat the unbeatable Joe Louis?

I admit that I am biased, as Jack Johnson is my favourite sportsman ever. I pick Jack Johnson to totally outclass Tunney and end the fight whenever he wanted.

Styles make fights and I only see a pre prison Ali, pre prison Tyson being able to beat him. None of the other stand up straight fighters mentioned in the other posts would be able to beat him.

Chris, i diisagreed with some of your arguments, but you argued them so well and supported them with examples that you earned your CC .

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