mike tyson--joe louis comparison

[Bomp]

Well to be better than Rocky and Louis you have to defend your title a bunch of times and not get beaten during your reign as champion.....when I say they are THE GREATEST I have my reasons.

The Olympic games are rubbish, as pro fighters Rocky and Louis were better, ask Roy Jones Jr what he thinks about the Olympics.


Being able to win all the time with "one gear" is pretty F****** impressive

You mean like Sven Ottke?

[El Kabong]

....but Svenn didn't fight everyone in his division when he was "champ"

Louis did and Marciano did....they ducked NO ONE


let's go brother what else do you have for me

[donnydarkoIRL]

They didn duck nobody...
But ur duckin me LoL

[El Kabong]

The Olympic Games are Rubbish

I really can't believe you typed that Lyle. I really can't believe that.

You no that Roy has a grudge as he was robbed of his gold medal. You think that Roy would have trained that hard if he really didn't care about it? Would he still be bitter if he didn't care about it

Well to be better than Rocky and Louis you have to defend your title a bunch of times and not get beaten during your reign as champion.....when I say they are THE GREATEST I have my reasons.
Well Ali did defend a bunch of times
He was also stripped of his title and he forged a succesful comeback to regain the title!

One gear may have been enough in their era's but in Ali's era, (in which the best heavyweight competition of all time was present,) the one true champion needed several gears.

If we're talking about the greatest AMATEUR boxers Ali isn't in the top spot in that either....Stevenson and Savon might have an argument there

The true champions force their will on a fight until it is won, they do not resort to piddly mind games and name calling.

Louis and Marciano had iron wills and they would never give in...someone could outbox them for 14 rounds and 2 minutes and still lose by KO.

And there is another thing which might knock Ali down a peg in my eyes is the fact everyone thinks he's such a gracious kind person BULLSHIT you cannot champion a cause like CIVIL RIGHTS and then use racial slurs to mentally shake your opponents. Ali was a great fighter but in no way was he a great person.

What you're basically saying about Ali is that the ERA made him great and not his successes alone.


Don't hold Joe Louis' and Rocky Marciano's ERAs over their careers they did the best they could and they were better than Ali in a result oriented review of their careers

[ICB]

Well to be better than Rocky and Louis you have to defend your title a bunch of times and not get beaten during your reign as champion.....when I say they are THE GREATEST I have my reasons.

The Olympic games are rubbish, as pro fighters Rocky and Louis were better, ask Roy Jones Jr what he thinks about the Olympics.


Being able to win all the time with "one gear" is pretty F****** impressive

You mean like Sven Ottke?

I'll pretend i never heard that because you may of meant something else but if you were just comparing Ottke to Louis and Marciano then im speechless.

[El Kabong]

Svenn didn't lose at all but Svenn also didn't fight anyone of note in an age where 160-175 were DEEP with talent.

So if you honestly want to compare Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano to Svenn Ottke then tell me who Joe and Rocky ducked because there is quite a long list for Svenn

[donnydarkoIRL]

If we're talking about the greatest AMATEUR boxers Ali isn't in the top spot in that either....Stevenson and Savon might have an argument there

The true champions force their will on a fight until it is won, they do not resort to piddly mind games and name calling.

Louis and Marciano had iron wills and they would never give in...someone could outbox them for 14 rounds and 2 minutes and still lose by KO.

And there is another thing which might knock Ali down a peg in my eyes is the fact everyone thinks he's such a gracious kind person BULLSHIT you cannot champion a cause like CIVIL RIGHTS and then use racial slurs to mentally shake your opponents. Ali was a great fighter but in no way was he a great person.

What you're basically saying about Ali is that the ERA made him great and not his successes alone.


Don't hold Joe Louis' and Rocky Marciano's ERAs over their careers they did the best they could and they were better than Ali in a result oriented review of their careers
I'm really considering dropping this debate with you as you seem to be letting personal views and opinions cloud your boxing knowledge.

The era did make him great. The 60's and 70's were a wonderful couple of decades for the heavyweight division with a number of legitimately great fighters. Ali beat the cream of the crop in that era.....
Would Marciano have done the same? Would he have survived against Foreman
He outboxed Liston....Would Louis have done the same?

In short I don't think so, I feel Ali would have only been consider greater had he fought Marciano and Louis.

[Bomp]

Well to be better than Rocky and Louis you have to defend your title a bunch of times and not get beaten during your reign as champion.....when I say they are THE GREATEST I have my reasons.

The Olympic games are rubbish, as pro fighters Rocky and Louis were better, ask Roy Jones Jr what he thinks about the Olympics.


Being able to win all the time with "one gear" is pretty F****** impressive

You mean like Sven Ottke?

I'll pretend i never heard that because you may of meant something else but if you were just comparing Ottke to Louis and Marciano then im speechless.

Just being ironic. I mentioned in another Tyson thread that people decide the criteria by which they decide who is the best in history to suit their favourite fighters.

The Olympic Games are Rubbish

I really can't believe you typed that Lyle. I really can't believe that.

You no that Roy has a grudge as he was robbed of his gold medal. You think that Roy would have trained that hard if he really didn't care about it? Would he still be bitter if he didn't care about it

Well to be better than Rocky and Louis you have to defend your title a bunch of times and not get beaten during your reign as champion.....when I say they are THE GREATEST I have my reasons.
Well Ali did defend a bunch of times
He was also stripped of his title and he forged a succesful comeback to regain the title!

One gear may have been enough in their era's but in Ali's era, (in which the best heavyweight competition of all time was present,) the one true champion needed several gears.

If we're talking about the greatest AMATEUR boxers Ali isn't in the top spot in that either....Stevenson and Savon might have an argument there

The true champions force their will on a fight until it is won, they do not resort to piddly mind games and name calling.

Louis and Marciano had iron wills and they would never give in...someone could outbox them for 14 rounds and 2 minutes and still lose by KO.

And there is another thing which might knock Ali down a peg in my eyes is the fact everyone thinks he's such a gracious kind person BULLSHIT you cannot champion a cause like CIVIL RIGHTS and then use racial slurs to mentally shake your opponents. Ali was a great fighter but in no way was he a great person.

What you're basically saying about Ali is that the ERA made him great and not his successes alone.


Don't hold Joe Louis' and Rocky Marciano's ERAs over their careers they did the best they could and they were better than Ali in a result oriented review of their careers

Then why should Ali's ERA be held against him? It's not HIS fault he fought in an ERA where his opponents were better than the opponents in previous ERA's.

[El Kabong]

It's not Ali's era that's held against him....it's Louis' and Marciano's that are held against them!

You cannot drop fighters here and there to try and prove a point...how did Louis and Marciano do in their eras which were good enough to produce some big time matches: Schmelling, Charles, Walcott, Moore, Layne, Baer, and so on and so forth.

Keep arguing my position will not change. And yeah maybe I do let some personal stuff in my opinion but I don't let it affect how great a boxer I think anyone is. I disagree 100% with Ali's politics but it doesn't make him a better or worse boxer than anyone else.

All I am saying is Louis and Marciano own some pretty big records and what Ali did just doesn't compete with those.....IN MY OPINION.

[Bomp]

It's not Ali's era that's held against him....it's Louis' and Marciano's that are held against them!

You cannot drop fighters here and there to try and prove a point...how did Louis and Marciano do in their eras which were good enough to produce some big time matches: Schmelling, Charles, Walcott, Moore, Layne, Baer, and so on and so forth.

Keep arguing my position will not change. And yeah maybe I do let some personal stuff in my opinion but I don't let it affect how great a boxer I think anyone is. I disagree 100% with Ali's politics but it doesn't make him a better or worse boxer than anyone else.

All I am saying is Louis and Marciano own some pretty big records and what Ali did just doesn't compete with those.....IN MY OPINION.

I know what you mean, I'm not trying to change your mind, I rate all three just as high as each other. I'm just pointing out the irony in your posts. By your reckoning, Ali would have left a greater legacy had he not come back from exile, he beat all there was to beat before then, with as many defences as Rocky (I believe, haven't checked precisely), and would have retired undefeated as well.

But I do agree with you exactly that a boxers' position in history should be determined by what they achieved in their time, rather than some mythical match ups between them. IMO, Tyson would beat both Rocky and Joe if you were to pluck them out of their time with a time machine and stick them, as they were exactly, in the eighties.

However such a statement is null and void since a much more justified comparison would be if they were bought up in each others respective era's, and what they would achieve. Rocky and Joe would most likely be bigger than Mike if Mike had been born in their times, and they also showed a hell of a lot more mental strength and determination, which they would have had regardless of when they were born. To put it simply, they were better CHAMPIONS, and the top of their era's, just as Ali and Dempsey and Johnson were top of their era's.

[Mr140]

Dempsey was something but i still think Tunney was the king of the 20's could be wrong though.

[ICB]

Dempsey was something but i still think Tunney was the king of the 20's could be wrong though.

Tunney is very underrated when i heard boxing historians say without a doubt Dempsey is better than Tunney thats how i know he is underrated i think Tunney was one of the first Heavyweights who had good movement.

[Mr140]

Yea i mean the guy was one of the first to actual box and he had great legs not as great as Ali's legs but hes up there. I mean he only lost once to Harry Greb and then came back and beat him 3 times and then total owns Dempsey he won 19 rounds out of the 20 they fought yet people think of that long count stuff. I would pick Gene Tunney to win over any heavyweight from the 1900's to the 1950's. Yea that means yea i think he beat Johnson, Louis, Marciano, Charles, Walcott, and Patterson Gene Tunney is no doubt a top 10 heavy he really needs to get more credit then he does.

[El Kabong]

...Tunney is top notch but I doubt he beats Rocky or Louis. Let us not forget Jack Dempsey was coming off an extremely long layoff in the first fight and possible food poisoning in the rematch.

Tunney is one of the greatest P4P all time though

[Violent Demise]

No way Tyson beats Ali and NO WAY Tyson beats Louis

I'll take Ali over Tyson. But a prime Tyson destroys a prime Louis