Quote Originally Posted by Lyle
Quote Originally Posted by Missy
Ever bothered to read it or does the very idea of politcal discourse make you ill?
The ideals of communism and socialism work on the idea that we live in a perfect world. They are good thoughts but dumb ideas because we don't live in a perfect world and we never will.

Capitalism works (especially in America) it's not always fair but it allows for verticle movement FOR EVERYONE the poor can become wealthy and the wealthy can become poor. It's an acheivement based system and I for one love the idea that you earn what you work for. How can you not love working towards a goal and acheiving and recieving due credit for your accomplishments If you were communist and you work hard you get the same thing the lazy motherfuckers get.....explain to me why anyone other than lazy people would want that!

Communism and Socialism allow for people to take advantage of the system...welfare has never and will never work for that reason.

Now that being said, I don't agree that every society should be capitalist or communist but I do love my capitalism and places like Cuba, China, North Korea, and Vietnam are communist but people aren't dying to try to break into those countries.

France has the right idea when it comes to borders, language, and culture. I totally disagree with the 30 hour work week but I respect other cultures but it's kind of hard to respect Iran and Iraq and other middle eastern nations when all we friggin hear everyday is "death to America" and "death to the Infidels"....it's been going on since before oil was ever used for anything...Crusades anyone Islam is a religion of peace only if you are muslim....if you're christian then you've got trouble.

The thing is the muslims of the west are turning our own laws against us, they are playing the role of victim and praying on our drive to be politically correct. Meanwhile in the Middle East they are anything but tolerant of the west and cut people's heads off and stone people to death and so on....they have a double standard, not the west!

The only anti-Americanism is coming from your posts
Lyle, you're a very interesting person. I appreciate your passion for these types of debates, but overall, I tend to disagree with you on these arguments. I do agree that communism and socialism aren't the most effective forms of government and that they have inherent flaws that can be manipulated for personal gain. However, I also put capitalism in the same category. While the system we have does allow for the poor to become rich, and vice versa, and reward people for hard work, there are a few things you've overlooked.

While there is the opportunity for less fortunate citizens to move up the social scale, the sad reality is that it rarely happens. Most American citizens work their asses off with very little significant gain. The truth is that Capitalism creates an environment where greed is the rule of the day. The select wealthy minority essentially feeds off of the much poorer workforce. In my opinion, this is the exact manipulation of the system inherent in both communism and socialism, except backwards. In those systems, the poor can feed off the system - in capitalism, the wealthy manipulate the system for profit. Which is worse? How can we compare the two? You might argue that the manipulation of the system by the wealthy has the effect of bolstering the economy, which is true to some extent. But does that have a significant impact on improving the quality of life for the average citizen? That's a much more difficult question to answer.

My problem with capitalism is that it venerates wealth as the ideal for which to strive. It equates money with goodness, which I wholeheartedly disagree with. My brother in law asks the same types of questions - am I willing to pay more taxes so that the poor can suck on the government tit? Basically, I say yes. While there is the possibility of vertical movement through the social strata, the system in place actually prohibits such movement. Spreading a little of the wealth back around to the poorer citizens is a means of making up for the screwing that the average citizen gets on a daily basis.