People stop saying Floyd would beat Tito

[The Rookie Fan]

Tito was getting outboxed by Oscar for the majority of their fight at 154. Mayweather is a much better boxer at 147 than Oscar at 154. The biggest difference is that Mayweather brings it for 12 full rounds while getting better with each passing round, while Oscar always fades down the stretch.

Mayweather would box Tito's ears off at 147 en-route to a wide UD.

Frozen, that fight was at 147. And that was Prime Undefeated Oscar at his best. I would've loved to have seen how Mayweather could've handled that Oscar given that he could barely handle him when they fought 8 YEARS AFTER. Even then, Oscar did not dominate Tito and Tito kept it close enough to pull of the W in the end. Also, Oscar was not known for stamina issues back then. He was known for rallying at the end. see Carr and Quartey fights. It was Tito that made him fight that way, it was Tito that made him back off at the end. Give the man some credit.

Now your just being biased, Mayweather handled Oscar much easier than Tito ever did. And lets not forget Mayweather fought Oscar way above his best weight class and Mayweather is about x2 better at Super Featherweight and Lightweight. I had Mayweather winning the Oscar De La Hoya fight clearly by 3 or 4 rounds plus Oscar De La Hoya only landed 21 percent of his punches, and Mayweather landed 43 percent of his punches, where as Oscar De La Hoya landed 41 percent of his punches vs Felix Trinidad, and Tito only landed 25 percent of his punches.

If Mayweather would have fought Oscar De La Hoya at Lightweight. Mayweather would have beaten Oscar De La Hoya by near enough the same scores as he did at Light Middleweight.

You are putting way too much into what I said. I never meant to imply Tito handled DLH better than Mayweather did. I'm simply stating that the DLH that Tito fought was much better than the DLH Mayweather fought. It was a prime, undefeated DLH. The reason I say that is because everyone likes to point out Tito-DLH and say see if DLH did that than Mayweather could do it better. Well I don't see how we can all come to the conclusion that Mayweather now at welterweight is any better than prime DLH at welterweight. Not to mention that Mayweather is smaller and does not have the power of DLH.

And why are you talking about DLH - Mayweather at Lightweight. What does that have to do with this discussion. But now that you mention it, you should be fair about it and remember that DLH was much better at Lightweight too.

[RozzySean]

Forget bout it Rozzy, Roy Jones was a greater fighter than PBF will ever be. Even at 39, he'll toy with Tito, then take him outta there when he feels like it. Its a mismatch, plain and simple.

That's exactly what Jones better NOT try to do. That would be a huge mistake, and you can't say that Jones is a greater fighter then PBF will every be when Jones has had his a** KO'd 2x by B+ Grade fighters, and he dominated in weight classes that were fairly week at that time, as least as compared to the resume Floyd has been building. I'm not taking anything away from Jones, who I respect and consider an ATG, but on an all-time p4p, Floyd rankings ahead of him already, and mostly likely by the time his career is done, it won't even be close.

And this is coming from a guy who hates Floyd and would love to see him get KTFO.

Bullshit. Who the hell has Mayweather beaten that is better than a prime James Toney? Answer me that. Gimme a fukin break.

Prime James Toney was Jone's finest hour. You can make a reasonable case that whitewashing Toney at 168 is a single greater victory than any of Mayweather's single victories, but once you get beyond Toney and a still developing Hopkins, the volumn of Mayweathers work given in the edge. Don't forget about PBF completely dominating and cleaning out 130 and 135. Been critical of Floyd in the past for the way he handled the 140lb division, but he put that to rest by beating Hatton last month.

Top Quality Floyd Mayweather wins:
Oscar, Ricky, Corrales, Castillo, Judah, Jesus Chavez, G. Hernadez, and Carlos Hernadez w/one hand.

Second Tier:
Manfredy, Corley, Baldomir

Top Jones Wins:
Toney, Hopkins (very young), Griffin, Hill, Harding, Ruiz (i guess)

Second Tier:
McCallum (a shot version), Gonzalez, Woods.

Both resumes are impressive. The win over a prime but totally weight drained Toney stands out, especially because he thumped him so thoroughly. Even at full strength, Roy wins that one. But once you get past 1 and 2 on the list, looking at the whole list, I give Floyd the edge, and he's not done adding to it.

And I hate Floyd. I'm just being objective. Roy seems greater in some ways because he was so much fun to watch. Made guys look dumb when they tried to him and threw brilliant, flashing combos.

Wheres Reggie Johnson who beat Steve Collins, was the first man to drop James Toney, plus all of his losses were razor thin decisions coming into Jones fight.

Thulani Malinga even deserves a mention he was never KO coming into Jones fight. Plus he went on to beat the likes of Benn and a lot of people think he should of been 2-0 with Benn instead of 1-1. He also out boxed a prime Robin Reid when he was 40+. Malinga was a tough solid fighter who went the distance with a lot of World champions.

And you also mention that Hopkins was young and inexperienced, but Roy Jones had even less fights than Hopkins.

Good enough points, but the statement that started this whole side topic was the Jones was a greater fighter than Floyd will every be. It was probably a reactionary statement on my part to say that Floyd has eclipsed Jones already, but it's a good debate, they are comparable ATG's, and Hulk is dead wrong to think Jones is on a significantly higher level than Mayweather. We can break down the relative strength of opposition, but you can't belittle Floyds accomplishments just because you hate him.

[ICB]

Tito was getting outboxed by Oscar for the majority of their fight at 154. Mayweather is a much better boxer at 147 than Oscar at 154. The biggest difference is that Mayweather brings it for 12 full rounds while getting better with each passing round, while Oscar always fades down the stretch.

Mayweather would box Tito's ears off at 147 en-route to a wide UD.

Frozen, that fight was at 147. And that was Prime Undefeated Oscar at his best. I would've loved to have seen how Mayweather could've handled that Oscar given that he could barely handle him when they fought 8 YEARS AFTER. Even then, Oscar did not dominate Tito and Tito kept it close enough to pull of the W in the end. Also, Oscar was not known for stamina issues back then. He was known for rallying at the end. see Carr and Quartey fights. It was Tito that made him fight that way, it was Tito that made him back off at the end. Give the man some credit.

Now your just being biased, Mayweather handled Oscar much easier than Tito ever did. And lets not forget Mayweather fought Oscar way above his best weight class and Mayweather is about x2 better at Super Featherweight and Lightweight. I had Mayweather winning the Oscar De La Hoya fight clearly by 3 or 4 rounds plus Oscar De La Hoya only landed 21 percent of his punches, and Mayweather landed 43 percent of his punches, where as Oscar De La Hoya landed 41 percent of his punches vs Felix Trinidad, and Tito only landed 25 percent of his punches.

If Mayweather would have fought Oscar De La Hoya at Lightweight. Mayweather would have beaten Oscar De La Hoya by near enough the same scores as he did at Light Middleweight.

You are putting way too much into what I said. I never meant to imply Tito handled DLH better than Mayweather did. I'm simply stating that the DLH that Tito fought was much better than the DLH Mayweather fought. It was a prime, undefeated DLH. The reason I say that is because everyone likes to point out Tito-DLH and say see if DLH did that than Mayweather could do it better. Well I don't see how we can all come to the conclusion that Mayweather now at welterweight is any better than prime DLH at welterweight. Not to mention that Mayweather is smaller and does not have the power of DLH.

And why are you talking about DLH - Mayweather at Lightweight. What does that have to do with this discussion. But now that you mention it, you should be fair about it and remember that DLH was much better at Lightweight too.

You tried to put Mayweather down by saying he barely beat Oscar De La Hoya 8 years after the Tito fight when thats total nonsense. Mayweather handled Oscar De La Hoya superbly well considering Oscar De La Hoya was almost a stone heavier than Mayweather was, plus the fight isn't as close as it seems. If you watch the fight carefully its a clear cut victory for Mayweather by at least 3 or 4 rounds, Oscar De La Hoya flurries looked good but they were flash and they were hardly landing. Mayweather out boxed Oscar De La Hoya clearly and made him only land 21 percent of his punches which is incredible. Plus you also forget that some of Oscar De La Hoya's finest performances were at Light Middleweight, he wasn't as shot as people make out. His fights with Hopkins, Sturm, were at a weight class Oscar De La Hoya was not comfortable at and you could see by his physique that he wasn't comfortable at the weight. His performance against Mayorga was pretty good, in fact Oscar De La Hoya in his fights with Mayorga, Mayweather, that was the best Oscar De La Hoya i had seen in years.

Oscar De La Hoya was better at lighter weights as well i agree, but Mayweather was something else especially at Super Featherweight where he looked pretty much unbeatable.

Good enough points, but the statement that started this whole side topic was the Jones was a greater fighter than Floyd will every be. It was probably a reactionary statement on my part to say that Floyd has eclipsed Jones already, but it's a good debate, they are comparable ATG's, and Hulk is dead wrong to think Jones is on a significantly higher level than Mayweather. We can break down the relative strength of opposition, but you can't belittle Floyds accomplishments just because you hate him.

Oh i agree in fact i think Mayweather technical wise is way better than Roy Jones, but i also think Jones is more naturally talented than Mayweather. Opposition/Achievement wise i would say it is pretty close.

Mayweather has won 5 world titles in 5 different weight classes, something only about 6 boxers have ever done. And Jones won the Heavyweight title something that hadn't been done since early 1900s. Both fighters have dominated mostly every opponent they have faced. And also both boxers have been criticized for facing over matched opponent's.

Mayweather's Best Wins

Ricky Hatton
Zab Judah
Genaro Hernandez
Oscar De La Hoya
Arturo Gatti
Diego Corrales
Jose Luis Castillo x2
Jesus Chavez
Angel Manfredy
Phillip N'dou
Carlos Hernandez

Goodish Wins

DeMarcus Corley
Carlos Manuel Baldomir
Sharmba Mitchell
Victoriano Sosa

World titles at Super Featherweight, Lightweight, Jr Welterweight, Welterweight, Light Middleweight.

Jones Best Wins

Mike McCallum = Old but still good.
Bernard Hopkins
James Toney
Virgil Hill
Julio Cesar Gonzalez
Eric Harding
Reggie Johnson
Montel Griffin
Vinny Pazienza
Clinton Woods

Goodish Wins

Thulani Malinga
Thomas Tate
Merqui Sosa
Lou Del Valle

World Titles at Middleweight, Super Middleweight, Light Heavyweight, Heavyweight.

[Mr140]

Well to be fair i would give Oscar good chance at winning at lower weights against Mayweather you got to remember that oscar was very dominante at the weights as well adn i still can not believe he made weight for SFW.

[RozzySean]

Good enough points, but the statement that started this whole side topic was the Jones was a greater fighter than Floyd will every be. It was probably a reactionary statement on my part to say that Floyd has eclipsed Jones already, but it's a good debate, they are comparable ATG's, and Hulk is dead wrong to think Jones is on a significantly higher level than Mayweather. We can break down the relative strength of opposition, but you can't belittle Floyds accomplishments just because you hate him.

Oh i agree in fact i think Mayweather technical wise is way better than Roy Jones, but i also think Jones is more naturally talented than Mayweather. Opposition/Achievement wise i would say it is pretty close.

Mayweather has won 5 world titles in 5 different weight classes, something only about 6 boxers have ever done. And Jones won the Heavyweight title something that hadn't been done since early 1900s. Both fighters have dominated mostly every opponent they have faced. And also both boxers have been criticized for facing over matched opponent's.

Mayweather's Best Wins

Ricky Hatton
Zab Judah
Genaro Hernandez
Oscar De La Hoya
Arturo Gatti
Diego Corrales
Jose Luis Castillo x2
Jesus Chavez
Angel Manfredy
Phillip N'dou
Carlos Hernandez

Goodish Wins

DeMarcus Corley
Carlos Manuel Baldomir
Sharmba Mitchell
Victoriano Sosa

World titles at Super Featherweight, Lightweight, Jr Welterweight, Welterweight, Light Middleweight.

Jones Best Wins

Mike McCallum = Old but still good.
Bernard Hopkins
James Toney
Virgil Hill
Julio Cesar Gonzalez
Eric Harding
Reggie Johnson
Montel Griffin
Vinny Pazienza
Clinton Woods

Goodish Wins

Thulani Malinga
Thomas Tate
Merqui Sosa
Lou Del Valle

World Titles at Middleweight, Super Middleweight, Light Heavyweight, Heavyweight.

[/quote]

I agree totally with you about Roy being the more physically gift and Floyd being the more skilled. I'm not sure there has ever been a more physically gifted boxer. Floyd isn't lacking physical tools, he has plenty, but he probably the most complete and refined fighter of our lifetime.

[donnydarkoIRL]

Textbook style and form > Physical ability.

[The Rookie Fan]

Tito was getting outboxed by Oscar for the majority of their fight at 154. Mayweather is a much better boxer at 147 than Oscar at 154. The biggest difference is that Mayweather brings it for 12 full rounds while getting better with each passing round, while Oscar always fades down the stretch.

Mayweather would box Tito's ears off at 147 en-route to a wide UD.

Frozen, that fight was at 147. And that was Prime Undefeated Oscar at his best. I would've loved to have seen how Mayweather could've handled that Oscar given that he could barely handle him when they fought 8 YEARS AFTER. Even then, Oscar did not dominate Tito and Tito kept it close enough to pull of the W in the end. Also, Oscar was not known for stamina issues back then. He was known for rallying at the end. see Carr and Quartey fights. It was Tito that made him fight that way, it was Tito that made him back off at the end. Give the man some credit.

Now your just being biased, Mayweather handled Oscar much easier than Tito ever did. And lets not forget Mayweather fought Oscar way above his best weight class and Mayweather is about x2 better at Super Featherweight and Lightweight. I had Mayweather winning the Oscar De La Hoya fight clearly by 3 or 4 rounds plus Oscar De La Hoya only landed 21 percent of his punches, and Mayweather landed 43 percent of his punches, where as Oscar De La Hoya landed 41 percent of his punches vs Felix Trinidad, and Tito only landed 25 percent of his punches.

If Mayweather would have fought Oscar De La Hoya at Lightweight. Mayweather would have beaten Oscar De La Hoya by near enough the same scores as he did at Light Middleweight.

You are putting way too much into what I said. I never meant to imply Tito handled DLH better than Mayweather did. I'm simply stating that the DLH that Tito fought was much better than the DLH Mayweather fought. It was a prime, undefeated DLH. The reason I say that is because everyone likes to point out Tito-DLH and say see if DLH did that than Mayweather could do it better. Well I don't see how we can all come to the conclusion that Mayweather now at welterweight is any better than prime DLH at welterweight. Not to mention that Mayweather is smaller and does not have the power of DLH.

And why are you talking about DLH - Mayweather at Lightweight. What does that have to do with this discussion. But now that you mention it, you should be fair about it and remember that DLH was much better at Lightweight too.

You tried to put Mayweather down by saying he barely beat Oscar De La Hoya 8 years after the Tito fight when thats total nonsense. Mayweather handled Oscar De La Hoya superbly well considering Oscar De La Hoya was almost a stone heavier than Mayweather was, plus the fight isn't as close as it seems. If you watch the fight carefully its a clear cut victory for Mayweather by at least 3 or 4 rounds, Oscar De La Hoya flurries looked good but they were flash and they were hardly landing. Mayweather out boxed Oscar De La Hoya clearly and made him only land 21 percent of his punches which is incredible. Plus you also forget that some of Oscar De La Hoya's finest performances were at Light Middleweight, he wasn't as shot as people make out. His fights with Hopkins, Sturm, were at a weight class Oscar De La Hoya was not comfortable at and you could see by his physique that he wasn't comfortable at the weight. His performance against Mayorga was pretty good, in fact Oscar De La Hoya in his fights with Mayorga, Mayweather, that was the best Oscar De La Hoya i had seen in years.

Oscar De La Hoya was better at lighter weights as well i agree, but Mayweather was something else especially at Super Featherweight where he looked pretty much unbeatable.

I'd say it was more 2 - 3 rounds, 4 might be pushing it. The reason I say that is because there were several rounds where PBF just didn't do enough to win the round even when he was making Oscar miss. I'd say he clearly outpointed DLH but not out fought him or gave him a beating. But that is just my opinion.

Eather way, my point is you cannot use DLH as a common opponent comparison between Tito and Floyd given that there is 8 years sepperating these two fights and that DLH was simply not the same fighter. Not to mention DLH was attempting to fight Floyd in a way that is not his norm. DLH is not exactly a good preassure fighter he does alot better when he uses the jab and boxes. He's a boxer/Puncher not a swarmer like he tried to be against PBF.

Yes DLH did better at 154 but he also had slightly better competition at 147.

BTW, as you said before DLH made Tito miss a lot of jabs but Tito still landed 39% of his power shots. That ain't too bad.

[cockey cockney]

Textbook style and form > Physical ability.

yeah definately....being technically amazing is always gona win because even getting old or off form you can still pull the tricks and get the tactics right to win the fight. Where as having natural physical ability will go over time and without mastering other aspects will leave you wide open as shown by Jones vs Tarver for example.

[donnydarkoIRL]

Cockney me train of thought precisely.

I must contrast Muhammad Ali with Roy Jones to further my point.
Both had amazing physical ability and unparalelled reflexes and speed.

However as the physical skills faded, they went two very different ways. Ali who had learned his craft and developed his boxing brain went on (i'm speaking after his layoff) tyo have his most glorious wins and did so through skill rather than power.

Once his speed and reflexes left him Roy was Ko'ed and he is now desperately trying to develop some skills to help him through the remainder of his career.

[superheavyrhun]

Cockney me train of thought precisely.

I must contrast Muhammad Ali with Roy Jones to further my point.
Both had amazing physical ability and unparalelled reflexes and speed.

However as the physical skills faded, they went two very different ways. Ali who had learned his craft and developed his boxing brain went on (i'm speaking after his layoff) tyo have his most glorious wins and did so through skill rather than power.

Once his speed and reflexes left him Roy was Ko'ed and he is now desperately trying to develop some skills to help him through the remainder of his career.

So would you agree with people who are worried about RJJ actually beating Tito and getting back in the ring with a genuine world champ who could cause him some serious damage?

I agree that some fighters can lean on the skills better than others, and I'm not convinced that everyone can overcome the loss of speed and reflexes. Whether RJJ still has it in him to learn those, we'll see over the coming year.

[RozzySean]

Cockney me train of thought precisely.

I must contrast Muhammad Ali with Roy Jones to further my point.
Both had amazing physical ability and unparalelled reflexes and speed.

However as the physical skills faded, they went two very different ways. Ali who had learned his craft and developed his boxing brain went on (i'm speaking after his layoff) tyo have his most glorious wins and did so through skill rather than power.

Once his speed and reflexes left him Roy was Ko'ed and he is now desperately trying to develop some skills to help him through the remainder of his career.

So would you agree with people who are worried about RJJ actually beating Tito and getting back in the ring with a genuine world champ who could cause him some serious damage?

I agree that some fighters can lean on the skills better than others, and I'm not convinced that everyone can overcome the loss of speed and reflexes. Whether RJJ still has it in him to learn those, we'll see over the coming year.

If Wacko is right and Roy has been working on developing a more conventional style and can adapt to the reality that he can't rely 90% on his reflexes, he could still have a few fights left in him at high level. He's never going to be B-Hop, in terms of ring craftiness, but if I can just stop dropping in hands and work off an improved jab a big, he can present a challenge to some of the young bucks. I'm just not sure Roy has the humility to reinvent himself like that, but I think if he were interested in developing a new set a skills, he would be fighting more often. If he had gone back to the drawing board after the 2nd Tarver loss, I think he would be real force in at LHW right now and a threat to anybody, but as it stands, I don't think that has happened. He's changed his style some, but I don't think he's fought enough in the last two years to refine a new style to a championship level.

[donnydarkoIRL]

Cockney me train of thought precisely.

I must contrast Muhammad Ali with Roy Jones to further my point.
Both had amazing physical ability and unparalelled reflexes and speed.

However as the physical skills faded, they went two very different ways. Ali who had learned his craft and developed his boxing brain went on (i'm speaking after his layoff) tyo have his most glorious wins and did so through skill rather than power.

Once his speed and reflexes left him Roy was Ko'ed and he is now desperately trying to develop some skills to help him through the remainder of his career.

So would you agree with people who are worried about RJJ actually beating Tito and getting back in the ring with a genuine world champ who could cause him some serious damage?

I agree that some fighters can lean on the skills better than others, and I'm not convinced that everyone can overcome the loss of speed and reflexes. Whether RJJ still has it in him to learn those, we'll see over the coming year.

Yes I would.

Roy was never taught much skill, even in the amateur he could never be descrobed as a textbook fighter, because he never learned the textbook.

At this advanced stage he's trying to bone up and learn the lessons he should have started with and put in two decent performances, but RJJ disposed of those wonderful abilities is a mediocre fighter, not even reaching the level of "good"

[superheavyrhun]

Cockney me train of thought precisely.

I must contrast Muhammad Ali with Roy Jones to further my point.
Both had amazing physical ability and unparalelled reflexes and speed.

However as the physical skills faded, they went two very different ways. Ali who had learned his craft and developed his boxing brain went on (i'm speaking after his layoff) tyo have his most glorious wins and did so through skill rather than power.

Once his speed and reflexes left him Roy was Ko'ed and he is now desperately trying to develop some skills to help him through the remainder of his career.

So would you agree with people who are worried about RJJ actually beating Tito and getting back in the ring with a genuine world champ who could cause him some serious damage?

I agree that some fighters can lean on the skills better than others, and I'm not convinced that everyone can overcome the loss of speed and reflexes. Whether RJJ still has it in him to learn those, we'll see over the coming year.

Yes I would.

Roy was never taught much skill, even in the amateur he could never be descrobed as a textbook fighter, because he never learned the textbook.

At this advanced stage he's trying to bone up and learn the lessons he should have started with and put in two decent performances, but RJJ disposed of those wonderful abilities is a mediocre fighter, not even reaching the level of "good"

Well, if Roy does win against Tito, and manages to get some sort of shot at a light heavyweight belt, are there any champions at the minute it would be fairly safe to put him in with? Clinton Woods maybe?

[Majesty]

It would be a boring fight.

Floyd would be constantly moving and pot shotting Trinidad and Trinidad would be chasing and stalking looking to plant his feet and land his left hook and occassionally Floyd would use his jab to stop the forward progress of Trinidad. I think people really underestimate Floyd's power as well.

Floyd wins on points and Trinidad wins at most 4 rounds and probably because he lands one big shot while losing a majority of a lackluster round.

[donnydarkoIRL]

Cockney me train of thought precisely.

I must contrast Muhammad Ali with Roy Jones to further my point.
Both had amazing physical ability and unparalelled reflexes and speed.

However as the physical skills faded, they went two very different ways. Ali who had learned his craft and developed his boxing brain went on (i'm speaking after his layoff) tyo have his most glorious wins and did so through skill rather than power.

Once his speed and reflexes left him Roy was Ko'ed and he is now desperately trying to develop some skills to help him through the remainder of his career.

So would you agree with people who are worried about RJJ actually beating Tito and getting back in the ring with a genuine world champ who could cause him some serious damage?

I agree that some fighters can lean on the skills better than others, and I'm not convinced that everyone can overcome the loss of speed and reflexes. Whether RJJ still has it in him to learn those, we'll see over the coming year.

Yes I would.

Roy was never taught much skill, even in the amateur he could never be descrobed as a textbook fighter, because he never learned the textbook.

At this advanced stage he's trying to bone up and learn the lessons he should have started with and put in two decent performances, but RJJ disposed of those wonderful abilities is a mediocre fighter, not even reaching the level of "good"

Well, if Roy does win against Tito, and manages to get some sort of shot at a light heavyweight belt, are there any champions at the minute it would be fairly safe to put him in with? Clinton Woods maybe?

He'd be "safe" with woods, but to be honest he'd be safe with Hopkins too. Neither of those two are possessed of any dangerous power. However, I feel the real danger is to his legacy. The longer this past prime Jones lingers in the sport the more people are given to judge on. Every further fight he takes gives his detractors another fight with which they can raise the case "Without his skills he's not upto much"

An IMO Chad Dawson would KO him now.