Koko the Gorilla, especially of interest to Sharla and Pacfan

[Sharla]

I would never expect you to get on the evolutionary bandwagon Bilbo - that's why I don't bother replying to any of those threads anymore.

I think this is a completely different thing.

Monkeys in Japan knew how to steal money from tourists and use it in the vending machines. They learnt how to do this. Whether they think in words or not doesn't change the fact that they think.

I think in words more than anything else. I find it hard to visualize things sometimes. I think this is a lack of ability rather than the persence of one.

A friend of mine lives in the country and she deliberately doesn't just sit her young daughter in front of the TV. She was telling me and my flatmate about how her daughter plays and pretends to mother everything - she is demonstrating a very advanced imagination for her age.

That is based on the knowledge of my flatmate who works advising schools and child care centres on how to care for children with different needs. She comes home every night with different stories about children who are challenged by certain illnesses, disabilities or home life difficulties. I believe her when she says that my friends daughter has an unusually well developed imagination.

I think the way she's being brought up to not just sit in front of a screen is developing her mentally in a way we really all should have developed. Sure having a verbal language has given us a great many advantages but we would be much better at thinking in pictures and emotionally using imagery if we didn't have that.

Animals don't need to think in words to be thinking! That's like saying when you fantasize about something and you imagine it you're not actually thinking!

I think there's a difference between being territorial and jealous too. If the dog at my mum's house is jealous of the cat she doesn't just growl at the cat to tell her to PO - she gets up on my lap and sits on me and looks for my attention. If she was just territorial she'd be fine just with getting rid of the cat - she could be there without being affectionate and still 'win'.

Plus we've all seen the thought process when you tell a dog to come to you or sit down or something and it really doesn't want to. It looks at you all guilty and then just kinds ignores you but he/she is already cringing because he/she knows that they'll be in trouble but - no - no i just HAVE to chase those ducks!!!!!! They understand - cheeky buggers are just like disobedient children - anticipating that they'll be in trouble but weighing it up - getting too excited by their other option and just no - I HAVE to chase those ducks - but I'm hiding behind you the SECOND they turn on me!

[Kev]

I would never expect you to get on the evolutionary bandwagon Bilbo - that's why I don't bother replying to any of those threads anymore.

I think this is a completely different thing.

Monkeys in Japan knew how to steal money from tourists and use it in the vending machines. They learnt how to do this. Whether they think in words or not doesn't change the fact that they think.

I think in words more than anything else. I find it hard to visualize things sometimes. I think this is a lack of ability rather than the persence of one.

A friend of mine lives in the country and she deliberately doesn't just sit her young daughter in front of the TV. She was telling me and my flatmate about how her daughter plays and pretends to mother everything - she is demonstrating a very advanced imagination for her age.

That is based on the knowledge of my flatmate who works advising schools and child care centres on how to care for children with different needs. She comes home every night with different stories about children who are challenged by certain illnesses, disabilities or home life difficulties. I believe her when she says that my friends daughter has an unusually well developed imagination.

I think the way she's being brought up to not just sit in front of a screen is developing her mentally in a way we really all should have developed. Sure having a verbal language has given us a great many advantages but we would be much better at thinking in pictures and emotionally using imagery if we didn't have that.

Animals don't need to think in words to be thinking! That's like saying when you fantasize about something and you imagine it you're not actually thinking!

I think there's a difference between being territorial and jealous too. If the dog at my mum's house is jealous of the cat she doesn't just growl at the cat to tell her to PO - she gets up on my lap and sits on me and looks for my attention. If she was just territorial she'd be fine just with getting rid of the cat - she could be there without being affectionate and still 'win'.

You know I actually have just read your post at least half a dozen times and to be honest have no idea how to respond! Ordinarily I either laugh knowingly to myself at a poster's limited knowledge and then properly 'explain' things to them or more often when engaging/arguing with you try and deflect your arguments by being deliberately antagonistic and try and just provoke you into making responses instead.

But you cut me down to size with your 'That's I why don't bother to respond' sentence at the start and rather took the wind out of my sails

As for your actual arguments, I must admit I simply don't have an answer to most of it

I didn't know that monkeys had learned to steal money and operate vending machines, that frankly baffles me, I have no clue

And as to why I should elevate verbal or written language so as to make it the de facto gold standard when describing intelligence and consciousness again I can't really explain.

I think you are quite correct in stating that thinking in pictures and images is still thinking consciously. Your example of your jealous mum's dog is a 'suprisingly' good one.

I also liked what you said about visual perception and thinking. Actually Jean-Jacques Rousseau's theory of the 'noble savage' was based on much the same line of reasoning.

He advocated no books for children before the age of 12 up to which time he believed children should live lives free and unrestricted to live and learn as animals, like our tribal ancestors would have done. He felt book learning stunted a childs imagination and should be avoided in their formative years. In practice his teaching methods proved a disaster as they were far too dogmatic but I can certainly see some merit to his ideas although obviously up to the age of 12 seems to be a bit extreme.

I don't really have much else to say, I feel a little like I have been taken to school.

It's put me an unusual situation that I've never faced before. I can't just argue for the sake of arguing as then you'll just stop responding as you said at the beginning of the post, and I don't want that as I find you by far the most intellectually stimulating person on the forum.

On the other hand I just don't have any answers and until I find some will have to simply concede that you may indeed be correct

I was actually tempted to just not reply at all but I would have felt like a kop out in that case.

You darn gone and got me good there girl!

I guess without any powerful argument to the contrary I'm just going to have to agree with you.

[Sharla]

I'm sure you'll think of something - I'm SURE it's not over just yet!

[BoxingGorilla]

Maybe what I mean to ask is, does my dog love me as much as I love him? Say he knows the emotion of love, but is he a taker or a giver?

When I eat he assumes that he will get what I do not want. Part of him knows that there will always be a bit left for him even if it's just a taste.

Once it finds his way to his bowl I'd starve to death before he offered me a bite. So he does not understand sharing despite the fact that he may "love' me.

So what is "love" in a dogs mind? Some people show love by words, some people show love by actions... how does a dog express love? Licking your hand or face I assume his showing love although my dog has not done that since he was a puppy. These days he jumps up into my spot on the couch and looks at me through the corner of his eye to see if I am going to make him get down...

When I bathe my dog or clean his ears does he know I am doing it out of love or does he think I am tortuing him?

I know I sound like a jackass but it's just thoughts I have.

[Sharla]

I would guess that probably - like a child not wanting a bath - having to have one wouldn't feel like love. People do not always understand that things they do for each other are out of love either.

As for whether your dog would give you any food - probably not because he knows you can always get it and he doesn't think it's his role to show you love that way. Cats will often 'give' their owners presents of food though - nor realizing that a dead rat is not exactly appetising!

I read a true story about a woman who was running in the desert and fell. It's in a running magazine I have. She broke a few things (can't remember the exact injuries) but her dog stayed by her side for 3 days until she was rescued. The dog's body heat kept her alive at night when temperatures dropped - which was amazing in itself since she had very low body fat.

When rescuers finally came to her area it was her dog which led them to her. She was so delerious she was angry at her dog for walking away when he did that thinking he'd left her but he knew what he was doing!

If your dog really sensed you were in trouble he'd do whatever he could to help you. I think he probably knows you love him!