I conceed.

[Trainer Monkey]

....ok fine a lobbyist tried to help someone with PR for money.....WOW surprise


Now would someone explain to me Ronald Brown and Vince Foster's untimely deaths

I wouldn't expect Obama to have anything big happen yet but it'll happen and when it does, I'm going to be here waiting for an explination...although he could explain his ties to Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers and how those ties did NOT affect his political views

Bill Ayers helped head up a nationally renowned education reform program,Obama served on the board Mayor Daley founded
A state senator sitting on a board of education? Perish the thought. Next thing you know they might be passing legislation and stuff.
Heaven forbid
Really dude,turn off Hannity and Savage,all you say is a talking point,and I knew you were going to say it before you did,I check alot of right wing sites

[Trainer Monkey]

Lyle is the next Kenneth Star.

Im not even a huge fan of the Clintons,but c'mon,this crud has been debunked repeatedly
Trotting it out there again is just stupid

[bcollins]

Just to be honest, the choices given in the average presidential election (at least the ones I've been old enough to remotely understand) have been tantamount to picking between a cheese grater to the scrotum or some quiet time with a cactus.

It would be nice if our country was led by someone who actually gave a damn about it - and more specifically, the people in it.

All of them.

[El Kabong]

Bill Ayers helped head up a nationally renowned education reform program,Obama served on the board Mayor Daley founded
A state senator sitting on a board of education? Perish the thought. Next thing you know they might be passing legislation and stuff.
Heaven forbid
Really dude,turn off Hannity and Savage,all you say is a talking point,and I knew you were going to say it before you did,I check alot of right wing sites

I don't take Hannity or Savage seriously and I don't listen to them...I watch mainly MSNBC which even you can agree has it's fair share of liberals BUT I question them I don't just accept what they say regardless of context. But your views are so typical, ONLY Republicans get corrupted by power....ONLY Republicans make mistakes.....anyone who has a sucky life can just blame the Republicans. That's the problem with liberals they don't see their own flaws ....it's a part of politics and I bring it up to bring balance to this little debate hey if it's OK to have a FRIENDSHIP with a guy who planted 34 sticks of dynamite at a Detroit Police Station but it's not ok for a guy to have a person who had contact with the Burmese government speak for him at a convention.....maybe we can play 6 degrees of seperation while we're at it


America will survive no matter who is President and all this fatalistic talk about how doomed we are is bullcrap....stop being so childish. If Obama or Hillary is President things will be different but America will be fine and if McCain is President everything will be fine....the sun will rise again tomorrow. I just happen to think McCain will do a better job than either Hillary or Obama...but if you want to continue with your assumptions that he's far right wing and another George W. Bush and then don't accuse ME of using "talking points" when you're doing the same thing.

[El Kabong]

Just to be honest, the choices given in the average presidential election (at least the ones I've been old enough to remotely understand) have been tantamount to picking between a cheese grater to the scrotum or some quiet time with a cactus.

It would be nice if our country was led by someone who actually gave a damn about it - and more specifically, the people in it.

All of them.

...are you saying John McCain doesn't care about his country? Because that is blasphemy...he spent 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton because although he was offered a chance to leave early McCain turned down the offer of repatriation; he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.

To tell me that guy doesn't care about his country after he took beating after beating and was tortured for 5 years is fucking ridiculous

[bcollins]

Just to be honest, the choices given in the average presidential election (at least the ones I've been old enough to remotely understand) have been tantamount to picking between a cheese grater to the scrotum or some quiet time with a cactus.

It would be nice if our country was led by someone who actually gave a damn about it - and more specifically, the people in it.

All of them.

...are you saying John McCain doesn't care about his country? Because that is blasphemy...he spent 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton because although he was offered a chance to leave early McCain turned down the offer of repatriation; he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.

To tell me that guy doesn't care about his country after he took beating after beating and was tortured for 5 years is fucking ridiculous

Blasphemy to you, maybe - but neither you nor I know what his reasons were for his actions there. It's easy to classify something like that under the broad spectrum of "patriotism", but I believe that heroics of that type have less to do with the way he felt about his country and more about the dedication he felt for his comrades - and the disdain for his captors. Does it show an incredible amount of character? Absolutely. Do I personally admire and respect that kind of man? Absolutely. Do I have any idea what he went through there? None whatsoever.

Does this mean he wants what's best for the average United States citizen? Not necessarily. Just because the man has qualities I admire does not mean that he will work to improve the quality of life for EVERYONE in the nation. This is where you don't understand me - I feel that the government has no respect for the people it supposedly governs. Our modern leadership is a front - we aren't governed by democracy, we're governed by capitalism. Greed. You can talk about everyone being successful just by working hard, but that's not the case. The American Dream is a lie - it takes a hell of a lot more than hard work to succeed.

OK - rant over. Damn Lyle, you always get me going on this stuff - remember that I do respect your opinions, and more importantly, your right to have them. I love this country, too - that's why I don't want to see it run into the ground by greed.

[El Kabong]

...The American Dream isn't a lie...people have come here with no house to live in and no food to eat and they have made something out of themselves.

The American Dream fails when people start pointing their fingers and blaming everyone else for their own shortcomings. If you can build yourself up then you can also bring yourself down...sure other people have some say in certain areas but are you going to let THEM run your life? I know I won't because I RUN MY LIFE...I'm responsible and accountable for myself and I am the reason I fail or succeed I don't blame anyone else.


You think capitalism = greed and it's totally wrong. Capitalism is an achievement based system of economics and some people know how to play the game a lot better than others.

Greed is a SELFISH drive for money, power, and possesions....you ask people why they work and usually it's "to provide for my family" that's not greed. There is nothing greedy about striving to reach goals through hard work either.


What do you want? Do you want me to go out and bust my ass working while some lazy dirtbag sits at home collecting a government check You want people to work hard or do you want them to do the bare minimum I WANT to work hard as do a lot of people and if you think that little of yourself or whoever you percieve is hurt by capitalism then fine just tell them to give up and wait for that welfare check because that's really hard work and it's sooo worth it too.

Everyone isn't equal in the eyes of Capitalism...you EARN your keep and that is what makes it rewarding. Capitalism is based on the basic psychological programing we all have positive reinforcement...you work you earn money, you do a good job you earn more money. In Communism and Socialism it's you work, you get money, you don't work you get money, you work hard you get money, you work lazy you get money, you do crappy work you get money....where you see FAIR I see UNFAIR because it tells people that their worst is good enough and that's no way to live a life

[OumaFan]

Allen Greenspan, fairly conservative fiscally, said Clinton was the most impressive President he worked with on economic matters (even his detractors would have to admit Clinton did well economically) so Presidents do matter as far as the economy goes, not just advisors, although obviously its important to pick competent advisors, look at the idiots surrounding Bush who helped us get into all this trouble. .

[Trainer Monkey]

...The American Dream isn't a lie...people have come here with no house to live in and no food to eat and they have made something out of themselves.

The American Dream fails when people start pointing their fingers and blaming everyone else for their own shortcomings. If you can build yourself up then you can also bring yourself down...sure other people have some say in certain areas but are you going to let THEM run your life? I know I won't because I RUN MY LIFE...I'm responsible and accountable for myself and I am the reason I fail or succeed I don't blame anyone else.


You think capitalism = greed and it's totally wrong. Capitalism is an achievement based system of economics and some people know how to play the game a lot better than others.

Greed is a SELFISH drive for money, power, and possesions....you ask people why they work and usually it's "to provide for my family" that's not greed. There is nothing greedy about striving to reach goals through hard work either.


What do you want? Do you want me to go out and bust my ass working while some lazy dirtbag sits at home collecting a government check You want people to work hard or do you want them to do the bare minimum I WANT to work hard as do a lot of people and if you think that little of yourself or whoever you percieve is hurt by capitalism then fine just tell them to give up and wait for that welfare check because that's really hard work and it's sooo worth it too.

Everyone isn't equal in the eyes of Capitalism...you EARN your keep and that is what makes it rewarding. Capitalism is based on the basic psychological programing we all have positive reinforcement...you work you earn money, you do a good job you earn more money. In Communism and Socialism it's you work, you get money, you don't work you get money, you work hard you get money, you work lazy you get money, you do crappy work you get money....where you see FAIR I see UNFAIR because it tells people that their worst is good enough and that's no way to live a life

"You earn your keep"
Well I guess that means we'll be frog marching the heads of Aetna,Massey Energy,and Enron and dropping a slug in their head right?
I mean on a good day they sign a few papers,not exactly earning their keep are they?
They usually tank their own companies
Definitly not earning their keep are they?
Who do you think was working harder to earn their keep Lyle,the three miners who died in a Massey Mine last year?
Or the guy living in a tawney Washington suburb that made the decision not to set up the oxygen stations that would have saved their lives?

[bcollins]

...The American Dream isn't a lie...people have come here with no house to live in and no food to eat and they have made something out of themselves.

I wonder how many people fail for every one that succeeds? My guess is that it's a very lopsided ratio.

The American Dream fails when people start pointing their fingers and blaming everyone else for their own shortcomings. If you can build yourself up then you can also bring yourself down...sure other people have some say in certain areas but are you going to let THEM run your life? I know I won't because I RUN MY LIFE...I'm responsible and accountable for myself and I am the reason I fail or succeed I don't blame anyone else.

So, are you one of the ones who came from nothing and bult yourself up? I agree everyone is responsible for his or her own actions, but what I'm saying is that sometimes it isn't enough to bust your ass. I've seen a lot of people work themselves to the bone and end up with a big bunch of nothing through no fault of their own. Sometimes there ARE outside influences that determine success or failure. You seem to live in this dream world where hard work=success - and that's not the reality of the situation.

You think capitalism = greed and it's totally wrong. Capitalism is an achievement based system of economics and some people know how to play the game a lot better than others.

Sure - and the game is driven by those who started with a flush hand, for the most part. I know there are a lot of examples of people who work within the system to advance to the next rung of financial success, but for the most part, the deck is stacked against the common man.

...
Greed is a SELFISH drive for money, power, and possesions....you ask people why they work and usually it's "to provide for my family" that's not greed. There is nothing greedy about striving to reach goals through hard work either.

What do you want? Do you want me to go out and bust my ass working while some lazy dirtbag sits at home collecting a government check You want people to work hard or do you want them to do the bare minimum I WANT to work hard as do a lot of people and if you think that little of yourself or whoever you percieve is hurt by capitalism then fine just tell them to give up and wait for that welfare check because that's really hard work and it's sooo worth it too.

If the system works as you say it does, and you work as hard as you say you do, then you have several million in the bank that you worked really hard for, right? It's just that easy to go out and make all that money, right?

And I never said I want anyone to sit back and earn a welfare check. I think in most cases that welfare is crap. I think you should have to work for any money you get from the nation. Please stop projecting your anti-democrat rhetoric onto my position.

And I work my ass off too, buddy. I just finished a Master's degree while working three jobs pretty much the whole time I've been in school. I grew up working on farms and doing construction, so I'll wager I know a little something about hard work.

Everyone isn't equal in the eyes of Capitalism...you EARN your keep and that is what makes it rewarding. Capitalism is based on the basic psychological programing we all have positive reinforcement...you work you earn money, you do a good job you earn more money. In Communism and Socialism it's you work, you get money, you don't work you get money, you work hard you get money, you work lazy you get money, you do crappy work you get money....where you see FAIR I see UNFAIR because it tells people that their worst is good enough and that's no way to live a life

If capitalism worked that way, I'd have less of a problem with it. But that's a THEORETICAL interpretation. The reality is, you work, you work hard, you do better work, and you may or may not get the money you deserve. In most cases, some white-collar asshole that barely moves three feet in the course of the day gets a big chunk of whatever you make - without working a damn bit for it. So quit spouting off all this hypothetical, fairy-tale bullshit and get with the program.

[El Kabong]

"You earn your keep"
Well I guess that means we'll be frog marching the heads of Aetna,Massey Energy,and Enron and dropping a slug in their head right?
I mean on a good day they sign a few papers,not exactly earning their keep are they?
They usually tank their own companies
Definitly not earning their keep are they?
Who do you think was working harder to earn their keep Lyle,the three miners who died in a Massey Mine last year?
Or the guy living in a tawney Washington suburb that made the decision not to set up the oxygen stations that would have saved their lives?

The guys who CHOSE to be miners of course...they did choose that line of work didn't they Sure they probably didn't go to the finest grade schools or college if they even went to college but they weren't forced to work in a mine, no one held a gun to anybody's head...they know what could happen to them every single day they go down there. So someone cut corners with oxygen tanks...Miners have leverage because they do the leg work and they have the unions to get oxygen tanks put in.

bcollins failure is necessary ...without failure you never learn, without failure you gain nothing from success, without failure there is no such thing as hard work.

The American Dream isn't just for poor people buddy

The deck is stacked against the common man haha....and I suppose in communism and socialism then everyone does great. With that attitude you might as well just quit life, you're defeated, you've lost...game is over.

The American Dream isn't achieved over night...I will work for years and years accomplishing small goals and then accomplishing larger goals.

I'm not putting my fate in anyone else's hands...I control my own destiny...I could give a damn about some white collar guy doing whatever he's paid to do....maybe someday I'll be in that position. Those guys work hard, I've seen them, it's just a different type of work. Not everyone is some airhead who plays on the computer all day wasting money...those guys get what's coming to them in the end as well.

[Kirkland Laing]

I'm a registered Independent myself.... so you are wrong in assuming I "drink the Republican Kool-Aide" I'm not even a registered Republican.

I know John McCain because I wanted him to win in 2000, I've followed his career for quite some time now and I know that he above everyone else in politics as a whole works with people regardless of their political party and he is solution oriented he wants to ACCOMPLISH something.


I suppose Hillary and Obama know EVERYTHING about economics ....McCain is honest and he's telling America the same thing he told those people in Michigan "You've lost your jobs, they aren't going to come back, we have to create new jobs and you have to prepare yourselves to do them".

Meanwhile Hillary and Obama have kissed so many asses their lips are chapped.


PRESIDENTS DON'T HANDLE THE ECONOMY......ADVISORS HANDLE THE ECONOMY.

Some Presidents get lucky and some Presidents have to scratch and claw their way to break even, them's the breaks buddy. Sure they can affect the market a little bit but hell so can companies like Enron or Google....the President has no control over those things so give it a rest about the economy...McCain was at least man enough to admit his shortcomings whereas Obama has no flaws

If it wasn't for North Carolina Barack would have withered away into the background worse than Howard Dean in 2000. Barack is a face, he's a speaker, he's not a leader, he is an empty vessle in which liberals pour their hopes and dreams most of which I might add are slightly to overtly socialist.

Presidents do handle economic policy, like George Bush did getting his disastrous tax cut policies made into law.

Bush's Council of Economic Advisors is down to one economic advisor, no reputable economist wanting to be associated with the trainwreck that is Bush economic policy.

Would you be happy that instead of taxing oil companies the US government just took away the $70-100 billion corporate welfare handouts the oil industry gets from the government every year?

I notice you're dodging answering any of these questions. That's because facts and evidence don't matter to you and unfortunately a lot of Americans. Like the nonsense about America being capitalist, for instance. We're seeing the biggest-ever corporate socialist giveaway in history by the US government to the banking industry, the ongoing yearly corporate socialist payments to all the other US industries that get them and you're talking about capitalism.


In America private profits are allowed to remain private, but losses by private corporations like the recent banking losses are socialised, meaning they come out of your pocket. Heads they win, tails you lose, and you can't wait to vote again for the same bunch of crooks who've been relentlessly shafting you since you were old enough to work.

[El Kabong]

KL you like socialism then move to a socialist country and IF America was socialist then stop fucking complaining about it comrade.

You don't like supply side economics, you don't believe in it....that's fine go right ahead. I am not going ot try and argue it with you because you're not going to want to try to understand it so it's pointless to answer your questions KL....understand?

I'm not dodging, I'm saving you and me valueable time. I believe my way you believe your way...tax cuts don't destroy the economy like this, the Fed Rate cuts might but not tax cuts. Over spending might but not tax cuts. When you cut taxes you have to make it worth a citizen's while for them to SPEND their money and right now there's nothing out there to spend it on. Besides the taxes on the oil companies alone SHOULD have made up for any tax cut made by W.

John McCain isn't a crook and also a lot of good your democrats have done lately. John McCain's politics represent more of America than Hillary or Obama because he doesn't tow the party line, he can come across the isle and work with people of other political parties, and he has a heart and takes people into consideration with his policies.

You want to hate him then go right ahead. I'm done for now, I'll be back once you're all done driving the Democrat Party into the ground.....AGAIN

[Kirkland Laing]

KL you like socialism then move to a socialist country and IF America was socialist then stop fucking complaining about it comrade.

You don't like supply side economics, you don't believe in it....that's fine go right ahead. I am not going ot try and argue it with you because you're not going to want to try to understand it so it's pointless to answer your questions KL....understand?

I'm not dodging, I'm saving you and me valueable time. I believe my way you believe your way...tax cuts don't destroy the economy like this, the Fed Rate cuts might but not tax cuts. Over spending might but not tax cuts. When you cut taxes you have to make it worth a citizen's while for them to SPEND their money and right now there's nothing out there to spend it on. Besides the taxes on the oil companies alone SHOULD have made up for any tax cut made by W.

John McCain isn't a crook and also a lot of good your democrats have done lately. John McCain's politics represent more of America than Hillary or Obama because he doesn't tow the party line, he can come across the isle and work with people of other political parties, and he has a heart and takes people into consideration with his policies.

You want to hate him then go right ahead. I'm done for now, I'll be back once you're all done driving the Democrat Party into the ground.....AGAIN

I don't like socialism, I'm an ardent capitalist. I especially don't like corporate socialism. At least in Europe the handouts go to the people, not corporations.

You can't make an argument for supply-side economics, you're not capable of doing it. You just have this touching belief that tax cuts somehow work, in the face of all the facts and evidence.

Bush is making the Fed cut rates so shouldn't Bush get the blame for the damage rate cuts are doing to the economy, especially because they're a reaction to the failure of his other dumbass economic policies?

The oil compnies get tens of billions in government handouts every year, sometimews over a hundred billion. Do you think the government should continue paying them these subsidies?

John McCain is a flip-flopping bullshitter who pretends to be a "maverick." He's a clueless dummy that makes the incumbent clueless dummy look like a great man. He's easily the worst possible choice of all three candidates and it's because he'll carry on the same dumbass Bush policies that I hope he wins. The only way there'll ever be significant change in America is if the current lunatic Republican policies are continues till their inevitable spectacualr failure, and McCain is just the man to do it.

[El Kabong]

OK how do you get jobs to come to you? You give the companies some breaks. I agree that the BIG companies get the big breaks and sometimes it's uncalled for, I didn't like the bail out of Bear Stearns anymore than you.

Bush doesn't make the Fed cut rates the Fed Chair controls what happens in there he is not controlled by the President, I mean the President can replace him but if that was the case Greenspan wouldn't have lasted as long as he did.


Supply side economics is simple, you let the people have more money to spend and make up the difference via sales tax and corporate taxes as business would increase if spending increased but the problem is that sometimes people don't want to spend any money. You don't cut taxes during a war that's a big no-no...I will agree on that. Make an arguement for big tax hikes...should we have to pay this government more for what they have done I'd rather they do more with less instead of less with more.

Kirkland please....PLEASE come vote for Obama I am sure his policies are just going to blow our fucking minds. We've already had an inexperienced elitist prick running the show for 8 years and now you want another one but from another party and you think he's going to be different, how cute.