Sometimes I'm ashamed to be Canadian...

[El Kabong]

I don't SUPPORT what Bush has done or Cheaney or Rove...but at some point I just get fucking tired of it. Everyone gangs up on the people who don't like the liberals like they agree with 100% of what George W. Bush has done.....to tell you the truth I doubt I could find 1 politician I agree 100% with....and there's no shortage of politicians.

I don't agree with everything that America has ever done but what can we do to fix the past? NOTHING, until someone invents a time machine and even then we'll probably misuse that. We can fix the future and the present but I'm sorry we're not going to agree on how to go about fixing it and we may even have trouble agreeing on what needs to be fixed to begin with.

I'm sorry if I come off a bit pretentious when I say "Who gives a fuck what other countries think" but honestly no one is going to respect and love America if American citizens don't do it...and yeah Bush has a lot to do with that but hell the Democratic Congress hasn't done us any favors either....they were elected to change things and things are still the same, the war is still going on when they wanted to end it and had an opportunity to do so but didn't act.

All I can say about the war is, if it's going to be done it might as well be done correctly from here on out....if we leave too soon maybe it leads to an immediate trouble with Iran or 2-3 years down the road we have to go back or whatever.....but if the ball does start rolling over there then maybe just maybe we can actually learn something from being there and end up making friends over a long looooong period of time...neither of those are really going to happen more than likely something inbetween will happen.


I can understand your views, I just don't think that trying to make life "fair" really works.

[Youngblood]

Same old. A thread about mindless news, and somehow Lyle manages to get in here...say canada governments sucks, all canadians suck. Then starts on with the talk.

Just so he can see himself type a bunch of his thoughts that have nothing to do with the theme of the post, but everything to do with his own political agenda. Sometimes I wonder who it is he is really trying to convince. Us, or himself?

[El Kabong]

...or maybe I'm a double operative making sure you don't agree with my views therefore converting you to my secret views.......we may never know

[CFH]

I don't SUPPORT what Bush has done or Cheaney or Rove...but at some point I just get fucking tired of it. Everyone gangs up on the people who don't like the liberals like they agree with 100% of what George W. Bush has done.....to tell you the truth I doubt I could find 1 politician I agree 100% with....and there's no shortage of politicians.

I see what you're saying, but the history of conservatism (neo or otherwise) is certainly nothing that appeals to me. I'm not a big fan of self-righteous liberals either to be honest, I'm more of a middle of the road guy, but at least liberalism attempts to address social inequalities and things of that nature.
In regards to Bush, those who pull his strings, and his cronies, they have the blood of thousands of innocent people on their hands and I simply cannot forgive that. It's nothing different than what many so called "evil" dictators have done, it's just being presently in a different way.

I don't agree with everything that America has ever done but what can we do to fix the past? NOTHING, until someone invents a time machine and even then we'll probably misuse that. We can fix the future and the present but I'm sorry we're not going to agree on how to go about fixing it and we may even have trouble agreeing on what needs to be fixed to begin with.

I agree that there is no use crying over spilt milk, but burying ones head in the sand leads to repeating the same wrongs. Imperialism, in my mind, is fundamentally wrong regardless of who perpetrates it. Many people (I'm focusing on American's, but it applies to everyone) are completely ignorant of the true history of their nations, believing them to be fundamentally good when nothing could be further from the truth. Canada is not exempt from such things, ask our Native populations, and I dislike hearing people say that Canada is the greatest country in the world as much as I hate to hear American's say it. However, it is much more pronounced with America because of the scope of their reach and the power and influence of the country and also because of their historical willingness to exercise that power (usually for the benefit of business as opposed to the benefit of people), regardless of the outcomes for others.

I'm sorry if I come off a bit pretentious when I say "Who gives a fuck what other countries think" but honestly no one is going to respect and love America if American citizens don't do it...and yeah Bush has a lot to do with that but hell the Democratic Congress hasn't done us any favors either....they were elected to change things and things are still the same, the war is still going on when they wanted to end it and had an opportunity to do so but didn't act.

My problem is again with nationalism in general, regardless of the country. Honestly, I think that expecting others to love or even appreciate America as Americans do is unrealistic, especially when that country has negatively impacted their lives, and those of past and future generations.

I appreciate that I essentially won the lottery by being born where I was, and I love the land on which I dwell because it is where I have grown up, but I certainly don't love government of Canada and the elites who control it. I love the land and the people because they are familiar and probably because I have been told I have to since birth, but the fact that it is run by elites (and has been since its inception) bothers me and I in no way extend my love to them. Which isn't to say I wouldn't defend my country if it was attacked, I most certainly would, but I don't have that deep seeded believe that I live in the greatest place on earth or that it has some sort of intrinsic righteousness. The idea of money being the most important thing, which is prevalent in Western society, is abhorrent to me.

All I can say about the war is, if it's going to be done it might as well be done correctly from here on out....if we leave too soon maybe it leads to an immediate trouble with Iran or 2-3 years down the road we have to go back or whatever.....but if the ball does start rolling over there then maybe just maybe we can actually learn something from being there and end up making friends over a long looooong period of time...neither of those are really going to happen more than likely something inbetween will happen.

I think what is most likely to happen is that Iran will benefit the most from the Iraq war and will gain a great deal of influence over the whole region. Was that really worth American and Iraqi lives? Even if it had gone according to plan, it still wouldn't have been worth it. Change, to be effective, in most cases has to come from within a country.

I can understand your views, I just don't think that trying to make life "fair" really works.

Anyways, I hope I haven't come across as being harsh towards you or your country, I always appreciate the exchange of ideas and perspectives.