Ali, the dark side of his skill

[clean]

So if Lewis doesn't Hold and Hit Grant then he still KO's him that fast? If Ali doesn't hang on to Joe Frazier and hit him he still wins?

I'm just saying other people that do it get a ton of S*** for it but Ali is perfect. All I want people to do is realize Ali was a fighter, just like Liston, just like Tyson, just like Dempsey...and he fought like it. So you are able to respect Ali by copying his tactics since he was "THE GREATEST" for most people...but you should also be able to not be complained about if you use those same tactics...is that better?

I've never complained about Lennox holding and hitting Grant, but if someone didn't have a problem with Ali doing something but had a problem with someone else doing the same thing then I agree, they would be a hippocrite. The thing is I honestly can't remember that many people making a big deal out of it.

[mucho testosterone]

CC Lyle for having the nads to post this thread. ( i have to wait a few hours it seems)

If you already haven't you will eventually find as I have, that people give passes to certain boxers, but others the like to examine under a magnifying glass and highlight the first possible flaw they see.

But it seems that if the boxer is flamboyant enough, and the media (in this case Howard Cossell) makes the fighter out to be the "peoples champ" then they are very forgiving.

Ali was very very gifted with speed. He was a great boxer but he did hold often and no one really called him on it. It often seems to be part of the bigger mans game plan in many cases.

But no doubt people are very forgiving of this guy.

[El Kabong]

THANK YOU...geez it took all that bashing but finally a person who can see someone else's point of view cc

[undefeated]

Hello all, this will be sure to get me many of sad clicks but I don't give a F***.

Ali had skill HOWEVER no one every likes to admit he used questionable tactics at times...most of the time actually.
Here is a list of his favorite illegal boxing moves: backhanding the jab, holding and hitting, and leaving his jab extended for defensive purposes.

Those are illegal, he should have been penalized a whole lot more than he was...in fact I don't EVER remember him being penalized, I remember him being warned 50-60 times about holding and hitting though.

And now these fighters get picked on for their tactics that are similar to Ali's: Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Wladimir Klitschko, Ricky Hatton, John Ruiz, Chris Byrd, Bernard Hopkins, Jermain Taylor, and the list goes on and on.

I just want to bring Ali down from the pedestal everyone has him on...he was skilled but he did bend and break rules but don't ever F****** tell me "___ is not Ali" like it's OK for Ali to do those things just because he is Ali and those guys won't ever be him.

ali is my favorite --but i would never sad click you just 4 making a point--
so

[mucho testosterone]

What's your problem with Ali? How comes you did not mention him being Muslim this time? What is the purpose of this thread? Why do you have have to be such an uptight a** all the time?

Is this the Crying Game??

[Salhadin]

I'm just saying paint Ali with the same brush that you have the other guys painted with....even if they aren't the same skill level which they probably won't be.

Be real about what Ali did in the ring...don't look past the questionable stuff and let it slide just because he's Ali

If ali didnt hold so much, he would never have beat Frazier....So i totally agree with you, I do not like the way he held, he held TO MUCH...

[Taeth]

I think Ali also held way too much, and I agree with every statement you made... People should read the book facing Ali I believe where they talk to everyone he faced... He was an asshole, racist to his own people(JOe Frazier, George Foreman) he had little regard for his wives which is important to me at least. I love ALi the boxer(sometimes), but he wasn't a fair fighter.

[El Gamo]

What's your problem with Ali? How comes you did not mention him being Muslim this time? What is the purpose of this thread? Why do you have have to be such an uptight a** all the time?

Is this the Crying Game??

That is soooooooooooo lame. :P

[beds]

look at any sport 40 years ago and sportsman got away with alot of things they wouldnt get away with now

[mokele]

Well, you got a cool click from me for these remarks because I basically agree. Ali was 1 of the finest pure athletes ever to lace on a pair of gloves, who punched accurately, had incredible handspeed and footspeed and great coordination, but he was very far from being a complete fighter. On the contrary, Ali actually set back basic boxing technique by neglecting to learn the art of inside fighting. Ali hardly ever used body punches. Angelo Dundee said this very thing when he was interviewed years after Ali had retired. He said that Ali was so fast that he never bothered to teach him how to fight in close. To Ali's credit, he started to learn to do it late in his career when he had slowed down and began fighting flat-footed, but by then he had deteriorated noticeably in terms of speed. He showed a little bit of infighting skills in his 3rd fight with Norton and in his fight with Ron Lyle but by then it was too late for it to be of much help.

You forgot to mention that Ali had the habit of holding guys behind their head. It was Ali's unique brand of holding. He really didn't like to tie up the arms of an opponent, but preferred to hold them behind their head or give them a bear hug occasionally. Ali had so much charisma and such a huge fan following that referees and judges were intimidated by him to the point of allowing Ali to dictate his own rules inside the ring to some extent. Even Arthur Mercante gave up warning Ali for holding behind the head in the 3rd fight with Norton. Mercante was probably simply afraid of the repercussions for his career as a referee if he had started taking points away. To my knowledge, Ali never lost any points in his fights for holding. That in itself is significant.

Anyway, his career is long over and there's not much point in constantly harping on Ali's flaws inside and outside the ring. He seems like a genuinely warm and decent man today, whatever he did years ago. However, most boxing fans are not as old as I am and don't know what it was like in the 60s, 70s and early 80s when Ali was fighting. The man was bigger than life! He was held in complete awe by so many people in boxing, especially after his defeat of George Foreman. People lose their objectivity about him because of his stature in boxing history and his charisma.

[LBSCFC]

i think lyle has made very good points. hes stated what we all know but no-one has had the balls to say it. I think ali was a great fighter but Ive never pushed what hes done in the ring and said outside the ring under the rug

[shooter]

Ali was one of the greats but he's been deified by biograpghers and journalists. I'm sure he did his share of good with his racial advocacy but he spouted a lot of reverse racism, religious intolerance and didn't appear to treat women like a devout man of any faith

The uncle Tom remarks about Frazier seemed out of place. Frazier's skin was a lot darker and his upbringing a lot poorer than Ali's.

Ali's also been the ruin of a lot of less talented and aspiring boxers. How many guys have you seen on TV let alone in the gym that get beaten up doing the things that Hamed, Ali and many other physically gifted but unorthodox fighters are able to get away with through superior athletic talent? (low hands, sticking chin out, mugging to the crowd,swaying back from punches etc)

[El Kabong]

Thanks for being able to see my view of things.

Oh yeah zacbox Rocky used elbows and everything...watch his KO of Archie Moore, he slams his head with his forearm to get him down.

The best of the best usually bend the rules to win. To be the best you need an edge, you don't really need to "cheat" but it ain't cheating if the ref never says anything about it.

[X]

he had little regard for his wives which is important to me at least.

That's your opinion, but I still think prime Tyson was a great fighter despite his rape conviction. I think Holyfield was a good fighter despite having about a hundred children by different women, I think lots of great fighters had little or no regard for women (the same percentage as most men, before people find another bandwagon to jump on). People on this forum seem to rate Ikeabuchi, Harry Greb, John L Sullivan, Stanley Ketchell etc etc etc etc

When assessing a fighters skill we should stick to the facts inside the ropes, otherwise we keep rewriting history based on the accepted morality of the day.

[drgoodlooking]

What's your problem with Ali? How comes you did not mention him being Muslim this time? What is the purpose of this thread? Why do you have have to be such an uptight a** all the time?