Ali, the dark side of his skill

[Purist]

Do you bash Vitali or Wladimer or Delahoya for doing the same thing

[Kev]

Hello all, this will be sure to get me many of sad clicks but I don't give a F***.

Ali had skill HOWEVER no one every likes to admit he used questionable tactics at times...most of the time actually.
Here is a list of his favorite illegal boxing moves: backhanding the jab, holding and hitting, and leaving his jab extended for defensive purposes.

Those are illegal, he should have been penalized a whole lot more than he was...in fact I don't EVER remember him being penalized, I remember him being warned 50-60 times about holding and hitting though.

And now these fighters get picked on for their tactics that are similar to Ali's: Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Wladimir Klitschko, Ricky Hatton, John Ruiz, Chris Byrd, Bernard Hopkins, Jermain Taylor, and the list goes on and on.

I just want to bring Ali down from the pedestal everyone has him on...he was skilled but he did bend and break rules but don't ever F****** tell me "___ is not Ali" like it's OK for Ali to do those things just because he is Ali and those guys won't ever be him.

I think Ali is given special treatment partially because of his brilliance in the ring, his magnetic personality outside the ring and the fact that he is now crippled with Parkinson's Disease.

It's a fact that whilst in his current state of ill health nobody will publicly criticise the great man, but I'm sure within a few years of his death books about his darker side will be flooding out.

Personally I love Ali as a boxer and an entertainer. Sure he said some nasty things but that was his character, he needed to have a psychological edge over his opponents.

Regarding your rather scathing criticisms of Ali though, Lennox Lewis also called Frank Bruno an uncle Tom, whilst Ricardo Mayorga called De La Hoya a fag and a queer and said he wanted to stop the beating of his heart with his right hand.

Tyson said he wanted to eat Lennox Lewis' children (yes I know he didn't have any), whilst James Toney says no white man will ever be a heavyweight world champ.

My point is that boxing is an aggressive, violent sport where two people are literally expected to punch the life out of their opponent. Under such circumstances the ability to dominate the mental battle and undermine your opponent's confidence is paramount.

You cannot reasonably expect people to make a career out of beating another person up for your viewing pleasure but for them to still always remain respectful and polite about their rival's.

Boxing is an intense and brutal sport where you are competing for high stakes and risking your life. The other fighter in the ring with you is literally trying to smash your face in. He is your rival, your enemy. Under these circumstances it's not hard to understand that bad blood and nasty words can be exchanged.

[cockey cockney]

Lyle i admire the guts you have to bring this up, it seems everyone to say a bad word against ali is heavily criticed.

[mucho testosterone]

Wow Lyle, people are really butt-hurt over this one!

I think you hurt some peoples feelings.........

......funny how the truth can have that effect on people sometimes

[X]

How did anything you say prove he was a great character? He was a racist, and ignorant... He said more hypocritical things in his life than probably everybody on this forum combined.

NOW I AM REALLY PISSED OFF AND OFFENDED - THERE IS NO WAY THAT HE, NOR ANYONE ELSE ON THIS FORUM, HAS SAID MORE HYPOCRITICAL THINGS THAN ME.

CHECK OUT MY RECORDS OF POSTS. I AM DEFINITELY THE BIGGEST HYPOCRITE HERE.

[mucho testosterone]

I like to watch Ali with my Television muted. This guy insulted just about every single fighter he fought. Some worthy of the abuse, others not. Just because boxing is percieved by some to be violent, doesn't mean that its competitors can't be gentlemen.



Often times smack talk is either put on to try to "scare" an opponent before a fight or to trick all the simpletons out there into believing that there may actually be a feud and that they MUST by a ticket right now because these two fighters are angry and are going to have at each other!!

Then there are some shit talkers, who just have deep personal issues with themselves or race or whatever. (JT).

Ali probably did it because he had a giant ego and probably tried to scare some of his opponents.


Whatever the reason, I found Ali's jibber jabber annoying, every clip the guy is running his mouth. May have been entertaining for the slow-witted folks, but to me it was just loads and loads of showboating.

There are talented heavyweight fighters out there right now who win fights and don't choose to showboat and insult their opponents during every single pre-fight interview. I am starting to respect this behavior more and more. But then again, I am a fan of the athleticism, strategy, or in a word the "science".
If I want drama I'll go to the movies.
No need to bring the pro-wrestling mentality to the boxing ring.

What I like about him was that speed as I said earlier. Truly unbelievable speed. That is why when I watch an ali fight I hit the mute button and there is a good possibility that the people who created the mute button had Ali in mind when they were at the drawing table.

[The Whirlwind]

Great fighters get away with more nonsense than other fighters do, thats part of what makes them great.
It's not rocket science and it's not new.
Marciano is a legend and he was some kind of filthy brawling mongrel in the ring, but it worked for him, it was part of his style and it certainly didn't stop him from dominating most of the 1950's and creating a lasting legacy of pugilistic greatness.
Pick out ANY of the great fighters and you will see them get up to mischief in every fight at some stage.
They seem to know which side of the opponent the ref is on and they throw something low, late or into the back of the head and it doesn't get picked up while they hold their opponent and roll them the other way from the ref.
They find devious ways to infect the other fighters psyche and get an edge.

This is not tiddlywinks folks, this is attempting to beat your opponent in physical combat and if it means causing them pain, causing them to bleed, scarring them or rendering them unconscious then that is part of the deal as soon as you step through the ropes.

I think Ali was the Greatest fighter of all times, no question.
Did he use dirty tactics when he needed to, when it suited him, when he felt like it?
Damn right he did.
I still feel for poor old Ernie Terrell. What Ali did to Ernie Terrell was FAR worse than calling Smokin' Joe an 'Uncle Tom'.
Gee whizz he called Frazier a name, get over it
Even his trainer used dodgy tactics when he got in trouble. (Henry cooper)
It just adds to the stories, mystique and legend that is the the man we have come to know by a title beyond any boxing belts, he is
THE GREATEST FIGHTER OF ALL TIME.

Theres no second place in boxing.
There's a winner and a LOSER.
Which one do you want to be?
I know which one I want to be and I've hit opponents late, low and in the back of the head, I've butted them in the face and thumbed their eyes all of it intentional at times.
Not often, but when I needed to I did it and sometimes it worked, and other times I got points deducted, because ... I wasn't a 'great' fighter like the fellows we discuss so flippantly on here.

Muhammad Ali was like no other fighter because he overcame ENORMOUS personal, cultural and physical difficulties over a vast career where the best frickin years of his career were stolen from him because he was a voice for change that kept winning in the ring.
Unbelievably gifted with lightning fast hand speed and sharp quick footwork. His defence was impeccable and his movement just poetry in motion to watch. His conditioning was unparalleled. He created an entirely new style that has only been adopted successfully by the few very best fighters of later generations.
He fought 15 round contests all over the world in dozens of countries.
He went to the well more than almost any other fighter in history, and he did it all under a previously unequalled level of global scrutiny.
He was the first to smack talk with poetry etc.
He became elevated above the fight game and became a phenomena, a globally mutually revered and despised gladiator.
Greeted by world leaders, monarchs, he was a hero for millions and millions of people, like no other sports person has ever been before or since.

Did he get up to mischief and get away with it, YEAH!

So what?

It only added to his greatness, and no amount of latent misguided cheap shot negativity is ever going to change that.

[Purist]

Lyle how can you bash Ali for the same things Wladimer and Vitali did And you don't bash them in the same post?

[mucho testosterone]

Great fighters get away with more nonsense than other fighters do, thats part of what makes them great.
It's not rocket science and it's not new.
Marciano is a legend and he was some kind of filthy brawling mongrel in the ring, but it worked for him, it was part of his style and it certainly didn't stop him from dominating most of the 1950's and creating a lasting legacy of pugilistic greatness.
Pick out ANY of the great fighters and you will see them get up to mischief in every fight at some stage.
They seem to know which side of the opponent the ref is on and they throw something low, late or into the back of the head and it doesn't get picked up while they hold their opponent and roll them the other way from the ref.
They find devious ways to infect the other fighters psyche and get an edge.

This is not tiddlywinks folks, this is attempting to beat your opponent in physical combat and if it means causing them pain, causing them to bleed, scarring them or rendering them unconscious then that is part of the deal as soon as you step through the ropes.

I think Ali was the Greatest fighter of all times, no question.
Did he use dirty tactics when he needed to, when it suited him, when he felt like it?
Damn right he did.
I still feel for poor old Ernie Terrell. What Ali did to Ernie Terrell was FAR worse than calling Smokin' Joe an 'Uncle Tom'.
Gee whizz he called Frazier a name, get over it
Even his trainer used dodgy tactics when he got in trouble. (Henry cooper)
It just adds to the stories, mystique and legend that is the the man we have come to know by a title beyond any boxing belts, he is
THE GREATEST FIGHTER OF ALL TIME.

Theres no second place in boxing.
There's a winner and a LOSER.
Which one do you want to be?
I know which one I want to be and I've hit opponents late, low and in the back of the head, I've butted them in the face and thumbed their eyes all of it intentional at times.
Not often, but when I needed to I did it and sometimes it worked, and other times I got points deducted, because ... I wasn't a 'great' fighter like the fellows we discuss so flippantly on here.

Muhammad Ali was like no other fighter because he overcame ENORMOUS personal, cultural and physical difficulties over a vast career where the best frickin years of his career were stolen from him because he was a voice for change that kept winning in the ring.
Unbelievably gifted with lightning fast hand speed and sharp quick footwork. His defence was impeccable and his movement just poetry in motion to watch. His conditioning was unparalleled. He created an entirely new style that has only been adopted successfully by the few very best fighters of later generations.
He fought 15 round contests all over the world in dozens of countries.
He went to the well more than almost any other fighter in history, and he did it all under a previously unequalled level of global scrutiny.
He was the first to smack talk with poetry etc.
He became elevated above the fight game and became a phenomena, a globally mutually revered and despised gladiator.
Greeted by world leaders, monarchs, he was a hero for millions and millions of people, like no other sports person has ever been before or since.

Did he get up to mischief and get away with it, YEAH!

So what?

It only added to his greatness, and no amount of latent misguided cheap shot negativity is ever going to change that.

And some felt that he was an obnoxious blabber mouth with great boxing skills. Who's right....who's wrong??

There is no right or wrong.....just different points of view.

[El Kabong]

Lyle how can you bash Ali for the same things Wladimer and Vitali did And you don't bash them in the same post?

This is the reason Starr, Wlad and Vitali are bashed for the exact same things, I was wondering why it's ok to bash those guys for the same things Ali did.

I said that great fighters usually bend the rules in their favor guys like Demspey, Marciano, Tyson, Liston(well he went too far with the stuff he put in Ali's eyes), and yes even guys like The Klitschko's but why should Ali not have to answer the same questions?

If Ali is put on a pedestal and he doesn't answer to the same questions then it doesn't make him "The Greatest of All-Time" it puts him in a DIFFERENT category, and if all of his fans believe he's the greatest (which sure I rate him high but not #1) they should compare him to boxers the same way with the same rules or else he has an advantage that is unfair.

I don't want to knock Ali but if you campare him to someone else you have to see the bad stuff he did as well as the good just to be fair.

[JT Rock]

Lyle how can you bash Ali for the same things Wladimer and Vitali did   And you don't bash them in the same post?

This is the reason Starr, Wlad and Vitali are bashed for the exact same things, I was wondering why it's ok to bash those guys for the same things Ali did.

I said that great fighters usually bend the rules in their favor guys like Demspey, Marciano, Tyson, Liston(well he went too far with the stuff he put in Ali's eyes), and yes even guys like The Klitschko's but why should Ali not have to answer the same questions?

If Ali is put on a pedestal and he doesn't answer to the same questions then it doesn't make him "The Greatest of All-Time" it puts him in a DIFFERENT category, and if all of his fans believe he's the greatest (which sure I rate him high but not #1) they should compare him to boxers the same way with the same rules or else he has an advantage that is unfair.

I don't want to knock Ali but if you campare him to someone else you have to see the bad stuff he did as well as the good just to be fair.

Lyle you get a cool click for exploring this subject and having the onions for going against the grain on this one!!!!!That was a valid subject to be inquizitive about...Instaed of every one jumping down your throat they should see it for what it is not do discredit Ali,but to take a look at how Ali is a ring God but showed questionable discretion toward the rules, and not having to be held accountable as the rest or criticised for it, while others were crucified..........

I wuz indignant and shouting at the Ref During the Lewis, Tyson fight as that cheating bastard pushed his full 260lbs on the back of Tysons Neck for all those rounds illegally while Tyson fought probably the cleanest fight of his career and got worn down from carrying that aholes weight illegally,but know one said boo...All about the double standards...How many times did Michael Jordan travel and carry the ball an foul but got away with it we would have to use all of the population of the city of Chicago's fingers and toes to count...Double standards

[El Kabong]

Exactly! cc back.

Those "DOUBLE STANDARDS" if not taken into consideration lead to fights being basically popularity contests. Oh I like Ali better so he CAN hold and hit but Wlad can't...If we start to judge fighters like that then of course Ali is the best because no one else can do the things he did without getting chastized for it!

And I don't have Louis and Rocky over Ali because of race or politics but because Joe Louis defended his title 25 times...that's AWESOME, it's incredible, looking at the current heavyweights it's damn near impossible!!! Rocky was 49-0-0 and when compared with everyone's favorite fighter Nicolay Valuev there are considerations that need to be made: 1) Rocky fought anyone and everyone 2) Rocky was probably the smallest heavyweight champ ever 3) Rocky was an underdog at most times because the competition he faced was legit! 4) Valuev is going to DEFEND HIS TITLE (not warm up) against Owen Beck...show me where Rocky fought someone of that low of a calibre!

[mucho testosterone]

Exactly! cc back.

Those "DOUBLE STANDARDS" if not taken into consideration lead to fights being basically popularity contests. Oh I like Ali better so he CAN hold and hit but Wlad can't...If we start to judge fighters like that then of course Ali is the best because no one else can do the things he did without getting chastized for it!

And I don't have Louis and Rocky over Ali because of race or politics but because Joe Louis defended his title 25 times...that's AWESOME, it's incredible, looking at the current heavyweights it's damn near impossible!!! Rocky was 49-0-0 and when compared with everyone's favorite fighter Nicolay Valuev there are considerations that need to be made: 1) Rocky fought anyone and everyone 2) Rocky was probably the smallest heavyweight champ ever 3) Rocky was an underdog at most times because the competition he faced was legit! 4) Valuev is going to DEFEND HIS TITLE (not warm up) against Owen Beck...show me where Rocky fought someone of that low of a calibre!

Good points and nicely reinforced. CC

[CopeAli]

What's your problem with Ali? How comes you did not mention him being Muslim this time? What is the purpose of this thread? Why do you have have to be such an uptight a** all the time?

I don't have a problem with Ali. I have a problem with people who blindly follow the guy and thought he did no wrong at all.

History has been VERY kind to Ali, maybe too kind to Ali. You seen the movie? Did he call Frazier an Uncle Tom in the movie? Nah, that wouldn't be good for the movie.

Yes Ali had incredible skill but when it comes to people saying "He could do that he's Ali" it's wrong, you know? It's preferential treatment in a FIGHT and if fights are fair then those tactics either fly or they don't....no one got the benefit of the doubt more than Ali.

I still have Ali on my all-time greats list, I only oppose his questionable tactics and the way he treated the people who were supposed to be his brothers during the civil rights movement is that wrong?

Many fighters bend the rules, sometimes on instinct, sometimes not. It's that type of game with many diffferent characters, some endearing, some not. This is what adds to the attraction of boxing. But i think your views on Ali are a bit OTT especially when considering you still label him an all time great, which he clearly was and is.
With regards to the movie... Movies seldom give you the truth.

[Freddie]

Hehehe, i hope you dont think i'm being presumtious, but i must guess most of you including Lyle are American. Over here in Britain we have 3 subjects that are taboo, or should i say 3 people that must never be criticised.
They are in order.
1. The Queen mother
2. Henry Cooper
3. Bobby Charlton ( soccer player in the 60's)

I imagine it must be a bit like that over there with Ali, but a great laugh anyway seeing the thread and the reaction. lmao