The knock on Bernard Hopkins

[Greig]

First up, let me say that I think Bernard Hopkins is a future hall of famer, one of the best I've ever seen and one of the best of all time.

BUT.

All of his career defining victories came against guys who were moving up in weight (except for Tarver, but I never thought much of him anyway + I thinkk he was drained from moving down in weight) and against whom he boasted some considerable advantages in size and strength.

Name an elite level middleweight he beat in their prime. Robert Allen? Echols? No, his biggest wins at 160 were against Trinidad and DLH, guys who were in their prime at 147.

At 175 he's fought Winky, who peaked when he was at 154, Calzaghe (who beat him anyway) who is a 168lber and Pavlik, a natural middleweight he fought at 170lbs.


Anybody else feeling this?


I guess it ties in with him being the smartest fighter ever, he likes to stack the odds in his favour.

You kind of forgot champions Holmes,Joppy,and undefeated future champ Johnson.
People allways forget that,Hopkins beat everyone that was holding a middleweight title belt at the start of the unification series,AND Trinidad too

I forgot those two because they are forgettable.


Forgot about Glen Johnson, that was an oversight - but I don't think Glen had peaked when he fought Hopkins, and I also think he gets far too much credit for a win over a shot Roy Jones.

[Trainer Monkey]

First up, let me say that I think Bernard Hopkins is a future hall of famer, one of the best I've ever seen and one of the best of all time.

BUT.

All of his career defining victories came against guys who were moving up in weight (except for Tarver, but I never thought much of him anyway + I thinkk he was drained from moving down in weight) and against whom he boasted some considerable advantages in size and strength.

Name an elite level middleweight he beat in their prime. Robert Allen? Echols? No, his biggest wins at 160 were against Trinidad and DLH, guys who were in their prime at 147.

At 175 he's fought Winky, who peaked when he was at 154, Calzaghe (who beat him anyway) who is a 168lber and Pavlik, a natural middleweight he fought at 170lbs.


Anybody else feeling this?


I guess it ties in with him being the smartest fighter ever, he likes to stack the odds in his favour.

You kind of forgot champions Holmes,Joppy,and undefeated future champ Johnson.
People allways forget that,Hopkins beat everyone that was holding a middleweight title belt at the start of the unification series,AND Trinidad too

I forgot those two because they are forgettable.


Forgot about Glen Johnson, that was an oversight - but I don't think Glen had peaked when he fought Hopkins, and I also think he gets far too much credit for a win over a shot Roy Jones.

I'll use Roy Jones line here,"They didnt look bad before I fought them"
Holmes was holding a belt,Trinidad was holding a belt, and Joppy was the third guy in the unification series
Bernard beat all three.
And Johnson was rolling higher when Bernard beat him,he went in to a tailspin right after. But Bernard can do that to people. Taylor has never been the same since Bernard fought him,Tarver has never been the same,It took years for Johnson to right his ship. Holmes and Joppy went from being solid champs to being solid over.
Whats really going to be interesting is to see if Pavlik bounces back from the Bernard jinx.
I will give Jones credit(and everyone knows I think he's more hype then fight) Jones just kept on chugging after fighting Bernard,almost everyone else thats ever fought Bernard,was never quite the same

[Greig]

Trainer Monkey - lots of guys hold belts who aren't top level fighters.

Holmes and Joppy were never elite middleweights, they were solid at best.

Joppy was lucky to scrape past Howard Eastman before Hopkins beat him.

[Trainer Monkey]

Trainer Monkey - lots of guys hold belts who aren't top level fighters.

Holmes and Joppy were never elite middleweights, they were solid at best.

Joppy was lucky to scrape past Howard Eastman before Hopkins beat him.

Speaking of people Bernard beat,Eastmen lost too
He wasnt supposed to beat Trinidad,he wasnt supposed to beat Wright,he wasnt supposed to beat Tarver,and he wasnt supposed to beat Pavlik
Give it up,he unified the title at middleweight,he moved up,he's done everything thats left to be done. Even his losses are heavily arguable. Hell even when he was fresh out of Fraziers,he beat Mercado having to travel from Philly to Rochester only finding out he was fighting that day. He took a round and a half from Echols one handed because he had a seperated shoulder,when he could have retired and still won because he was well ahead on the cards.

[BIG H]

TM - I've just seen you criticize Cazlaghe's opposition in another thread, but yet you are trying to make William Joppy & Keith Holmes some kind of great resume for Hopkins

[smashup]

I've yet to see the fight but knew Hopkins would beat him

[Greig]

I think Bernard is great. He's a defensive wizard, practically impossible to hit cleanly. He has Phd in boxing science, the man truly is a marvel.

But some of his greatest wins I simply do not rate that highly (DLH and Winky are two that immediately spring to mind).

[Pugilistic]

I think Hopkins win over Trinidad was a great win.

Trinidad proved himself at middleweight by completely destroying Joppy in 5 rounds, No one has done anything like that to Joppy. Hopkins hit Joppy with everything he had years later and couldn't stop him.

Hopkins was the underdog in that fight, No one talked about the weight issue before the fight, It only became a issue after Hopkins took him to school.

I see Hopkins win over Oscar as a decent win, No way as big as the tito win, Oscar simply didn't belong at 160. Oscar did have a belt though.

[ICB]

TM - I've just seen you criticize Cazlaghe's opposition in another thread, but yet you are trying to make William Joppy & Keith Holmes some kind of great resume for Hopkins

Keith Holmes destroyed a younger version of Richie Woodhall, and Richie Woodhall is considered one of Joe Calzaghe best wins. But Joe Calzaghe fought an older more shot Richie Woodhall. Keith Holmes was never elite i'll admit, but he is better than most of Joe Calzaghe's opposition.

[BIG H]

TM - I've just seen you criticize Cazlaghe's opposition in another thread, but yet you are trying to make William Joppy & Keith Holmes some kind of great resume for Hopkins

Keith Holmes destroyed a younger version of Richie Woodhall, and Richie Woodhall is considered one of Joe Calzaghe best wins. But Joe Calzaghe fought an older more shot Richie Woodhall. Keith Holmes was never elite i'll admit, but he is better than most of Joe Calzaghe's opposition.

A better way to look at it would be to list all the people that Hopkins could've fought at Middleweight during his reign but didn't and all the people Calzaghe could've fought at SMW but didn't. I bet you'll find that they both fought the best that was available and that the big fights didn't happen because other fighters had moved weight divisions.

[Mikkel_K]

He wasnt supposed to beat Trinidad,he wasnt supposed to beat Wright

This is definitely not to take anything away from B-Hop, but I've seen this mentioned a few times since the weekend, and I just dont get it. I had him the solid favorite before going in there with Winky (mostly due to size and the weight they fought at), and I had the feeling most picked like me?

[OumaFan]

I think Wright-Hopkins was pretty much a pick em type thing. Pretty split across the board. At least that's how I remember it.

[Trainer Monkey]

I think Wright-Hopkins was pretty much a pick em type thing. Pretty split across the board. At least that's how I remember it.

I was talking to people constantly that said there was no way that Bernard could deal with Wrights technical skill.
Of course they still had Bernards ugly fights against Echols in the back of their heads.

[ICB]

First up, let me say that I think Bernard Hopkins is a future hall of famer, one of the best I've ever seen and one of the best of all time.

BUT.

All of his career defining victories came against guys who were moving up in weight (except for Tarver, but I never thought much of him anyway + I thinkk he was drained from moving down in weight) and against whom he boasted some considerable advantages in size and strength.

Name an elite level middleweight he beat in their prime. Robert Allen? Echols? No, his biggest wins at 160 were against Trinidad and DLH, guys who were in their prime at 147.

At 175 he's fought Winky, who peaked when he was at 154, Calzaghe (who beat him anyway) who is a 168lber and Pavlik, a natural middleweight he fought at 170lbs.


Anybody else feeling this?


I guess it ties in with him being the smartest fighter ever, he likes to stack the odds in his favour.

You kind of forgot champions Holmes,Joppy,and undefeated future champ Johnson.
People allways forget that,Hopkins beat everyone that was holding a middleweight title belt at the start of the unification series,AND Trinidad too

I forgot those two because they are forgettable.


Forgot about Glen Johnson, that was an oversight - but I don't think Glen had peaked when he fought Hopkins, and I also think he gets far too much credit for a win over a shot Roy Jones.

Glen Johnson was 32-0 at the time, and Keith Holmes at that time. Had good wins over Richie Woodhall, who is considered one of Joe Calzaghe's best wins. And a win against 33-0 Robert McCracken, who wasn't a bad fighter at all.