The knock on Bernard Hopkins

[Trainer Monkey]

Trainer Monkey - lots of guys hold belts who aren't top level fighters.

Holmes and Joppy were never elite middleweights, they were solid at best.

Joppy was lucky to scrape past Howard Eastman before Hopkins beat him.

Speaking of people Bernard beat,Eastmen lost too
He wasnt supposed to beat Trinidad,he wasnt supposed to beat Wright,he wasnt supposed to beat Tarver,and he wasnt supposed to beat Pavlik
Give it up,he unified the title at middleweight,he moved up,he's done everything thats left to be done. Even his losses are heavily arguable. Hell even when he was fresh out of Fraziers,he beat Mercado having to travel from Philly to Rochester only finding out he was fighting that day. He took a round and a half from Echols one handed because he had a seperated shoulder,when he could have retired and still won because he was well ahead on the cards.

[BIG H]

TM - I've just seen you criticize Cazlaghe's opposition in another thread, but yet you are trying to make William Joppy & Keith Holmes some kind of great resume for Hopkins

[smashup]

I've yet to see the fight but knew Hopkins would beat him

[Greig]

I think Bernard is great. He's a defensive wizard, practically impossible to hit cleanly. He has Phd in boxing science, the man truly is a marvel.

But some of his greatest wins I simply do not rate that highly (DLH and Winky are two that immediately spring to mind).

[smashup]

I think Bernard is great. He's a defensive wizard, practically impossible to hit cleanly. He has Phd in boxing science, the man truly is a marvel.

But some of his greatest wins I simply do not rate that highly (DLH and Winky are two that immediately spring to mind).

That's exactly why Calzaghe struggled to land punches well on him
I knew he'd be too skilled and crafty fot Pavlik...who imo is limited in skills!

[Pugilistic]

I think Hopkins win over Trinidad was a great win.

Trinidad proved himself at middleweight by completely destroying Joppy in 5 rounds, No one has done anything like that to Joppy. Hopkins hit Joppy with everything he had years later and couldn't stop him.

Hopkins was the underdog in that fight, No one talked about the weight issue before the fight, It only became a issue after Hopkins took him to school.

I see Hopkins win over Oscar as a decent win, No way as big as the tito win, Oscar simply didn't belong at 160. Oscar did have a belt though.

[ICB]

TM - I've just seen you criticize Cazlaghe's opposition in another thread, but yet you are trying to make William Joppy & Keith Holmes some kind of great resume for Hopkins

Keith Holmes destroyed a younger version of Richie Woodhall, and Richie Woodhall is considered one of Joe Calzaghe best wins. But Joe Calzaghe fought an older more shot Richie Woodhall. Keith Holmes was never elite i'll admit, but he is better than most of Joe Calzaghe's opposition.

[BIG H]

TM - I've just seen you criticize Cazlaghe's opposition in another thread, but yet you are trying to make William Joppy & Keith Holmes some kind of great resume for Hopkins

Keith Holmes destroyed a younger version of Richie Woodhall, and Richie Woodhall is considered one of Joe Calzaghe best wins. But Joe Calzaghe fought an older more shot Richie Woodhall. Keith Holmes was never elite i'll admit, but he is better than most of Joe Calzaghe's opposition.

A better way to look at it would be to list all the people that Hopkins could've fought at Middleweight during his reign but didn't and all the people Calzaghe could've fought at SMW but didn't. I bet you'll find that they both fought the best that was available and that the big fights didn't happen because other fighters had moved weight divisions.

[BIG H]

These are the one's JC did fight, who he didn't fight (without bullshit reasons) I am struggling with

Chris Eubank - 2 weight World champion
Richie Woodhall - WBC Champion
Robin Reid - WBC Champion
Charles Brewer - IBF Champion
Byron Mitchell - WBA Champion
Jeff Lacy - IBF Champion (but we all knew he was overrated didn't we )
Mikkel Kessler -WBA/WBC Champion
Bernard Hopkins - Think he won something

[OumaFan]

The shame is that he didn't have bigger fights earlier on because he would have been able to show what a fantastic fighter he really was.

Some of his pre-Tito wins are a bit underrated but there's no point in going into that.

One of the great mysteries to me is how the two Taylor fights were even close enough to be controversial (I thought he won both but I could see how activity only people would see Taylor winning) but what he's done since then at his age is pretty ridiculous. I mean I could see how people would bring up steroids, its that ridiculous.

I will say that some of his biggest wins (Tarver, Tito, Pavlik to an extent) are getting downplayed now but all of those he was heavy heavy underdogs in and he ended up dominating.

[ICB]

These are the one's JC did fight, who he didn't fight (without bullshit reasons) I am struggling with

Chris Eubank - 2 weight World champion
Richie Woodhall - WBC Champion
Robin Reid - WBC Champion
Charles Brewer - IBF Champion
Byron Mitchell - WBA Champion
Jeff Lacy - IBF Champion (but we all knew he was overrated didn't we )
Mikkel Kessler -WBA/WBC Champion
Bernard Hopkins - Think he won something

Never questioned that Joe Calzaghe or Bernard Hopkins didn't fight the best available. I just think Joe Calzaghe was in a weaker division than Bernard Hopkins was, which isn't his fault nor Bernard Hopkins but i still think Joe Calzaghe should of moved up to LHW ages ago.

As for the boxers Joe Calzaghe could of fought well there was Glen Johnson, and Sven Ottke but Sven Ottke didn't want no part of Joe Calzaghe.

[Mikkel_K]

He wasnt supposed to beat Trinidad,he wasnt supposed to beat Wright

This is definitely not to take anything away from B-Hop, but I've seen this mentioned a few times since the weekend, and I just dont get it. I had him the solid favorite before going in there with Winky (mostly due to size and the weight they fought at), and I had the feeling most picked like me?

[OumaFan]

I think Wright-Hopkins was pretty much a pick em type thing. Pretty split across the board. At least that's how I remember it.

[Trainer Monkey]

I think Wright-Hopkins was pretty much a pick em type thing. Pretty split across the board. At least that's how I remember it.

I was talking to people constantly that said there was no way that Bernard could deal with Wrights technical skill.
Of course they still had Bernards ugly fights against Echols in the back of their heads.