Joe Calzaghe under the micoscope

[Tysonbruno]

The following thread is for the rest of you guys and girls to constructively discuss and give your opinions. I'm interested in your views.
Yes we all know i hate Calzaghe but these are the reasons i don't think he is an ATG.

1. WBO title challenge - Chris Eubank , who had twice been beaten by Steve Collins , and was badly weight drained . UD 12
2. Branko Sobot - he came into the fight with a record of 14-1 , he had beaten nobody - was a very poor fighter and none puncher , is now 19-11.
3. Juan Gimenez - had already bean beaten byEubank , Nigel Benn and Roberto Duran , was a poor opponent with no chance of winning.
4.Robin Reid , this was a very close fight , many felt Reid was robbed ,Calzaghe didn't help his cause by telling us he would ko Reid as "he cant take my power " jibe was ranted. Reid had lost his title to an ancient Thulane Malinga prior to fighting Calzaghe. - SD12.
5. Rick Thornberry ,KOED by Henry Wharton prior to this fight , he earned the shot at Calzaghe by beating 3 fighters with records as follows 1-0
8-23-5 , 5-26-1 . a disgraceful choice of opponent. UD12.
6. David Starie , who had been previously stopped in a British title fight by Dean Francis ,done nothing to earn title fight. - UD12 was a sleeper.
7. Omar Sheika had lost prior to the title shot to Tony Booth 28 -44-7 ,
but he had at least beaten Glen Johnson to earn shot. TKO5.
8. Richie Woodhall ,lost to Keith Holmes , had lost his title to Marcus Byer , and earned title shot by beating former welterweight Errol Mcdonald. TKO 10.
9. Mario Veit , undefeated but untested , brushed aside with ease . two fights before his title shot had beaten one Errol Mcdonald . TKO1.
10. Will Mcintrye , this undeserving challenger had lost to Dana Rosenblatt , and earned his shot by beating Jessie Marsh 9-3-1 . and Charles Daughtry 9-25-2 , this is a joke fighter. TKO 4.
11. Charles Brewer , this hot and cold fighter was always erratic , had lost prior on two occasions to Sven Ottke , and had be KOED by Antwan Echols, Lonnie Beasley etc. UD12.
12. Miguel Jimenez , this guy had beaten nobody to earn shot , lost to Brian Magee in his next fight also. UD12.
13. Tocker Pudwill , well this guy has to be the worst of the bunch , had lost prior to Sven Ottke , sound familiar ? he earned his shot at Calzaghe by beating the following , Enrico Ramirez 5-12-1 , Donnie Pendleton 13 -139-4 ,Larry Kenney 9-32-2 , Kwan Manassah 6-16-2. now i may not like Warren or Calzaghe but this fight was a joke.TKO2.
14. Byron Mitchell , this guy at least had a good punch as he showed by flooring Calzaghe , but had lost his prior fight to Sven Ottke , sound familiar ? exciting fight anyhow. TKO 2.
15. Mger Mkratchian , this guy had earned his shot by beating a guy with a record of 2-31 , another poor fighter. TKO 7.
16. Kabary Salem , this guy had lost his prior fight to Mario Veit , after the Calzaghe fight he was KOED by Luciano Bute. UD12.
17. Mario Veit , Veit did do better than the first fight , but still was outgunned. TKO6.
18. Evans Ashira, this guy was pretty limited , he had been KOED two fights earlier by Maselino Masoe , but lasted the distance . UD12.
19. Jeff Lacy , Lacy had looked a beast against Robin Reid , he entered the right with21 wins 17 KO'S , was over hyped , Calzaghe put his finest performance so far , handing Lacy his ass. For the record Jeff Lacy hasn't scored a KO since the Calzaghe fight. UD12.
20. Peter Manfredo JR , happy to be here Manfredo was light years from being world class , he also looked a division to small. Another poor fighter. TKO3.
21. Sakio Bika , another limited fighter , fought dirty and lost widely. UD12.
22.Mikkel Kessler , undefeated and by far the most complete fighter Calzaghe had fought so far , an excellent performance , his finest for me,
Kessler has gone on to regain a title at SM. UD12.
23. Fought a 43 year old Bernard Hopkins , was floored in the first , fight was close , Hopkins didnt fight with any urgency . Another good performance .Hopkins has gone on to beat Kelly Pavlik .SD 12.

So those are the facts , as far as I'm concerned Joe Calzaghe is a top fighter , but his resume is mostly poor , Kessler and Hopkins are both top fighters but his record is littered with to much garbage.
I for one do not think that resume is one of an ALL TIME GREAT.
I am not a fan of his pitty pat slaping punches , and do not find him good to watch.
Calzaghe has fought very few fighters with big power , he has been carefully matched by Warren , and for what reason , he looks as though he could have held his own with anyfighter , even if he was beaten , he wouldnt have disgraced himself.
Im sure he is not the first fighter to be judged like this and he will not be the last. Some will blame Frank Warren for his match making but a large portion of the blame has to fall on Calzaghe.He is an excellent fighter who should have fought top fighters more , and even if he had 2-3 losses i would respect him more.
I am very interested in your views , and i have tried hard not to let my hatred of Calzaghe cloud what I'm trying to achieve.
Please discuss.

Regards
Dark Lord.

I totally agree mate but ive done things like this before and the Calzaghe lovers vision goes all blurred and they cant read it or take it in.

[Fenster]

Someone list ALL the other fighters, over the past 10 years, that would have remained UNBEATEN against Calzaghe's comp?

[Tysonbruno]

When people break down Roy's Jones career they only pull out the names that are big forgetting to compare Roy's weaker opposition to Calzaghe's weaker opposition even is weaker opposition is better than Calzaghe's weaker opposition Vinny Paz and Malinga would have beat most of Calzaghe's weak opposition and thats just picking 2 out.

[QUISQUEYA]

Someone list ALL the other fighters, over the past 10 years, that would have remained UNBEATEN against Calzaghe's comp?

Calzaghe benefited from an extraordinarily weak 168 division over the past decade.

When Jeff Lacy and Mikkel Kessler are the marquee names on your resume for a Hall of Fame bid, you are a very fortunate man.

If calzaghe had been fighting the best guys from 160-175 over the past decade, would he still have his "0"?

Hopkins (not the 43 yr old version)
Jones (not the 40 yr old version)
Tarver
Taylor
Pavlik
Johnson
Toney
Winky
etc


Instead, Joey made time for Peter Manfredo and Sakio Bika.

[Fenster]

Someone list ALL the other fighters, over the past 10 years, that would have remained UNBEATEN against Calzaghe's comp?

Calzaghe benefited from an extraordinarily weak 168 division over the past decade.

When Jeff Lacy and Mikkel Kessler are the marquee names on your resume for a Hall of Fame bid, you are a very fortunate man.

If calzaghe had been fighting the best guys from 160-175 over the past decade, would he still have his "0"?

Hopkins (not the 43 yr old version)
Jones (not the 40 yr old version)
Tarver
Taylor
Pavlik
Johnson
Toney
Winky
etc


Instead, Joey made time for Peter Manfredo and Sakio Bika.

That's an impressive list of fighters. If Calzaghe had never beaten ANY you'd have a very reasonable argument..

BUT - from your list Hopkins beat

Tarver
Pavlik
Johnson
Winky

Calzaghe BEAT Hopkins. That must count for something, no? He beat the man that beat the men - that supposedly could equal his achievements.

[OumaFan]

We have this same debate every single day. Literally. Its amazing if you think about it.

The positions are always the same. I want to come in here one day and see Fenster bashing Calzaghe just to spice things up.

[Fenster]

We have this same debate every single day. Literally. Its amazing if you think about it.

The positions are always the same. I want to come in here one day and see Fenster bashing Calzaghe just to spice things up.

Defending Calzaghe is a SICKNESS for me. I've come to enjoy it.

And i'll have you know Ouma, I've criticized Calzaghe on many an occassion and believe he deserves his fair share.. but i'll argue otherwise for the sake of it

[Kev]

Someone list ALL the other fighters, over the past 10 years, that would have remained UNBEATEN against Calzaghe's comp?

Calzaghe benefited from an extraordinarily weak 168 division over the past decade.

When Jeff Lacy and Mikkel Kessler are the marquee names on your resume for a Hall of Fame bid, you are a very fortunate man.

If calzaghe had been fighting the best guys from 160-175 over the past decade, would he still have his "0"?

Hopkins (not the 43 yr old version)
Jones (not the 40 yr old version)
Tarver
Taylor
Pavlik
Johnson
Toney
Winky
etc


Instead, Joey made time for Peter Manfredo and Sakio Bika.

That's an impressive list of fighters. If Calzaghe had never beaten ANY you'd have a very reasonable argument..

BUT - from your list Hopkins beat

Tarver
Pavlik
Johnson
Winky

Calzaghe BEAT Hopkins. That must count for something, no? He beat the man that beat the men - that supposedly could equal his achievements.

ahahahahahaha

[Kev]

Bilbo i just laughed my ass off when i see you said Virgil Hill is no world beater. He has 21 world title defenses combined at Light Heavyweight which is the record or close to it are you serious ?

Joe Calzaghe made 21 CONSECUTIVE title defenses which IS the record at supermiddle weight and the second most defenses in history yet you don't think he's a world beater.

You laugh at me for thinking Virgil is not an all time great, but Calzaghe's record is even better and yet you don't rate him?

Not what i was saying at all Joe Calzaghe is a better fighter than Virgil Hill, i never said that and i never said i didn't rate Joe Calzaghe. And where did i say Joe Calzaghe isn't world beater ? why would i say that ? that would be ridiculous if i did say that, i just think his record has many question marks. The problem i had with your comment is right here in bold.

Clinton Woods, Virgil Hill, Reggie Johnson, decent fighters but not world beaters.

How in the world is Virgil Hill just a decent fighter and not a world beater, when he has 21 world title defenses combined, and also holds many other records aswell ?

And also reply to my other comment aswell above.

We're arguing semantics Ice, by world beater I meant they are not elite fighters, of the calibre of Toney, Hopkins and McCallum.

I'm sure you will be able to hit me with statistics to show that Hill is as good as the guys above but I think you know what I mean.

Hill was a good fighter but he's not at the level of the guys above

[QUISQUEYA]

Calzaghe BEAT Hopkins. That must count for something, no? He beat the man that beat the men - that supposedly could equal his achievements.

Calzaghe beat a FORTY THREE YEAR OLD Hopkins. By a close points decision. After getting knocked down.

Please don't be confused. Hopkins dominating Pavlik says more about what Pavlik is NOT, than what Hopkins (at 43) is.

With all due respect, that "man that beat the man" argument is seriously flawed. Unless you are prepared to anoint Junior Jones as an ATG. Because he also "beat the man who beat the man".

[Andre]

That looks an impressive record by anyone standards.

He's beaten an all-time great fighter (Hopkins) and a great supermiddle (Eubank), unified against a couple of unbeaten prime fighters (Kessler and Lacy), beaten a handful of proven "world" champs (Reid, Brewer, Woodhall, Mitchell), beaten a handful of young hungry/tough contenders (Sheika, Veit, Bika, Starie) and totally outclassed some mediocre opposition.

How many fighters, over the past 10 years, around Calzaghe's weight-class, would also be UNBEATEN against that lot?

Sven Okkte.

[Kev]

Calzaghe BEAT Hopkins. That must count for something, no? He beat the man that beat the men - that supposedly could equal his achievements.

Calzaghe beat a FORTY THREE YEAR OLD Hopkins. By a close points decision. After getting knocked down.

Please don't be confused. Hopkins dominating Pavlik says more about what Pavlik is NOT, than what Hopkins (at 43) is.

With all due respect, that "man that beat the man" argument is seriously flawed. Unless you are prepared to anoint Junior Jones as an ATG. Because he also "beat the man who beat the man".

Well if in addition to beating Barrera twice Jones also reigned for 10 years as an undefeated super bantamweight champ, made 21 consective defenses of his title, unified the entire division and won all four belts then moved up and beat the man at featherweight then I would happily put him as an all time great

[Fenster]

Calzaghe BEAT Hopkins. That must count for something, no? He beat the man that beat the men - that supposedly could equal his achievements.

Calzaghe beat a FORTY THREE YEAR OLD Hopkins. By a close points decision. After getting knocked down.

Please don't be confused. Hopkins dominating Pavlik says more about what Pavlik is NOT, than what Hopkins (at 43) is.

With all due respect, that "man that beat the man" argument is seriously flawed. Unless you are prepared to anoint Junior Jones as an ATG. Because he also "beat the man who beat the man".

41-year-old Hopkins EASILY beat Tarver.

42-year-old Hopkins COMFORTABLY beat Winky.

43-year-old Hopkins was BEATEN by Calzaghe.

43-year-old Hopkins THRASHED Pavlik.


TWO fights prior to Calzaghe, Hopkins age WAS NOT a factor in beating class fighters. After he was BEATEN by Calzaghe his age WAS NOT a factor in defeating Pavlik. Fact.

So.. why is his age a factor in the Calzaghe LOSS?

[Fenster]

That looks an impressive record by anyone standards.

He's beaten an all-time great fighter (Hopkins) and a great supermiddle (Eubank), unified against a couple of unbeaten prime fighters (Kessler and Lacy), beaten a handful of proven "world" champs (Reid, Brewer, Woodhall, Mitchell), beaten a handful of young hungry/tough contenders (Sheika, Veit, Bika, Starie) and totally outclassed some mediocre opposition.

How many fighters, over the past 10 years, around Calzaghe's weight-class, would also be UNBEATEN against that lot?

Sven Okkte.

Reid was very unlucky not to beat him (shocking ref). Brewer and Mitchell had arguable losses. I don't see him beating Hopkins, Eubank or Kessler. Starie gave him a close-ish fight.

Very slim chance, Andre, Ottke would have remained unbeaten through that level of opposition.

[Kev]

Calzaghe BEAT Hopkins. That must count for something, no? He beat the man that beat the men - that supposedly could equal his achievements.

Calzaghe beat a FORTY THREE YEAR OLD Hopkins. By a close points decision. After getting knocked down.

Please don't be confused. Hopkins dominating Pavlik says more about what Pavlik is NOT, than what Hopkins (at 43) is.

With all due respect, that "man that beat the man" argument is seriously flawed. Unless you are prepared to anoint Junior Jones as an ATG. Because he also "beat the man who beat the man".

Well if in addition to beating Barrera twice Jones also reigned for 10 years as an undefeated super bantamweight champ, made 21 consective defenses of his title, unified the entire division and won all four belts then moved up and beat the man at featherweight then I would happily put him as an all time great

I'm still awaiting reply to this post above. I think Game Set Match is about to be declared