Best Super Middleweight of all time to date?

[WelshDevilRob]

The Poll was before Calzaghe vs Kessler and the writer was American Steve Farhood (who has written for KO and The Ring Magazine).

Farhood said that if Joe beat Kessler then that would make him No.1.

That would be for current super middle weights, this is all time.

It was for all-time, Greg.

[WelshDevilRob]

Top Ten: Super Middleweight

Steve Farhood rates the leading fighters in the relatively short history of a division turned bigtime mainly to European boxers

A question that has puzzled philosophers dating back to Socrates, Confucius, Aristotle, and Don King: How can a division that has flaunted world titlists such as Sugar Ray Leonard, Thomas Hearns, Roy Jones, Iran Barkley and James Toney be dominated by fighters from the UK and the rest of Europe?
The super middleweight class is 23 years old, and there have been 41 different champions, of which only 13 have been American.
The heart and soul of the super middleweights have been the fighters who committed to the division, made or at least solidified their reputations at 12st, and scored their most significant triumphs at the weight. For multi-division titlists like Leonard and Hearns, super middleweight was a mere pit stop. But Joe Calzaghe, Chris Eubank, Nigel Benn and Steve Collins turned a division into a prime battlefield.
On 3 November in Cardiff, Calzaghe will clash with fellow unbeaten Mikkel Kessler in a unification bout featuring titlists with a combined record of 82-0. The outcome will impact the pound-for-pound rankings, the super middleweight rankings and the all-time division rankings.
At a press conference announcing the fight, I asked both titlists to identify the best super middleweight of all. Calzaghe said he was number one, with Roy Jones second. Kessler said he was number one, but acknowledged that he'd have to beat Calzaghe to prove it.
Here, then, from a writer on the wrong side of the pond (Farhood is American), are the Top 10 super middleweights in division history.

1 ROY JONES

Jones occupies the highest perch for three reasons: 1) He won his share of the title by masterfully outboxing James Toney, who at the time was ranked second, pound for pound; 2) He made five defences, all by stoppage, and never lost at the weight; 3) He won the title at age 25 and vacated at 28, or to put it more simply, he reigned when Roy Jones was Roy Jones, a breathtaking, unique, overwhelming talent.
Toney aside, Jones's opposition at super middleweight wasn't memorable; his victims were Bryant Brannon, Vinny Pazienza, Antoine Byrd, Tony Thornton and Eric Lucas. Nonetheless, his performances were special. Against Paz, he won a round without absorbing a single blow.
A bout vs fellow titlist Nigel Benn would've been intriguing, but at that point in Jones's career, he wasn't going to lose to Benn or anybody else.

2 JOE CALZAGHE

A 10-year title run and 20 successful defences is the stuff of legends, and the Welsh southpaw is still rolling. Should he convincingly defeat Kessler, I'll place him above Jones.
To place the numbers in perspective, consider that among today's titlists, Calzaghe's reign is seven years longer than that of the runners-up, lightweight Juan Diaz and strawweight Yutaka niida.
Calzaghe has been uneven. He's suffered several injuries, struggled through mediocre performances, and bested forgettable challengers, including Will McIntyre, Rick Thornberry and Tocker Pudwill. Moreover, 18 of his 20 defences have come in the UK. But the positives are sparkling: He won his first title by dethroning an itimidating presence and established titlist in Chris Eubank, rose from a devastating knockdown to stop Byron Mitchell, and schooled Jeff Lacy, who was 21-0 and labeled a mini-Tyson.
At this point, Calzaghe is defined by his dominance over Lacy, who is dismissed as having been overrated only because of the thoroughness of Calzaghe's victory. If the left-hander defeats Kessler, we'll have to reconsider his credentials for the second time in 20 months.

3 NIGEL BENN

With "The Dark Destroyer", there was balance: A former belt-holder at middleweight, Benn followed nine successful defences at 12st with losses in three consecutive title bouts. Title fight wins over Mauro Galvano (twice), Lou Gent and danny Perez don't score a lot of points, but his rematch defence against arch-rival Eubank (D 12), fought before 42,000 fans at Old Trafford, was the division's most significant bout to that point, and his tragic off-the-floor stoppage of fearsome puncher Gerald McClellan was as savage a bout as any in the '90s.
The majority of observers thought Benn nicked Eubank in their 1993 unification showdown. In fact, a point deduction for punching low cost Benn the verdict.

4 CHRIS EUBANK
Sadly, what McClellan was to Benn, Michael Watson was to Eubank. In one of the best fights of the decade (and one of the most dramatic turnarounds in history), Eubank won a vacant title by rising from the first knockdown of his career and immediately dropping Watson. He finished his rival early in the next round, and Watson, severly injured, never fought again.
Eubank mad 14 successful defences. Like most long-reigning titlists, his resume includes some forgettable challenges (Mauricio Costa, John Jarvis, Sam Storey), but his draw with Benn and his points win in Germany over former and future titlist Graciano Rocchigiani, who was 35-0 at the time, elevate him over almost all other super middles.
It was before Calzaghe's title-fight win over Eubank that the division developed its reputation as a British stronghold. And even though they fought each other only once at the weight, Eubank and Benn are responsible.

5 JAMES TONEY
It can be argued that at his best, Toney was a better fighter than both Benn and Eubank, but his stay at super middle was relatively short, and his horrendous points loss to Jones deserves penalty.
What to make of Toney's title-winning stoppage of Iran Barkley? "The Blade" had twice beaten Hearns, but had also suffered a first-round KO at the hands of Benn. That aside, Toney, who always struggled to make 12st, defended against Tim Littles, who was 24-0, and comprehensively defeated Prince Charles Williams, who had reigned with distinction at light-heavyweight.
Suffice to say that when we consider Toney's career in its entirety, only a small portion of the focus is applied to his days in this division.

[WelshDevilRob]

6 STEVE COLLINS
Timing is essential, and for that reason, the Irishman, despite having twice beaten both Benn and Eubank, ranks below them.
Collins caught Eubank toward the end, and both his wins over Benn, the result of injury (First fight) and curious surrender (rematch), were less than comprehensive. The back-to-back losses were the last fights of Benn's career.
One other thing: As tough as Collins was, he wasn't the fighter his more celebrated rivals were.
Collins made seven successful defences. Remove the three that came against Eubank and Benn and his challengers (Cornelius Carr, Neville Brown, Craig Cummings) were underwhelming. He did, however, retire with the belt, something neither Eubank nor Benn can claim to have done.

7 SVEN OTTKE
The German never lost a fight (34-0), but don't even suggest comparisons with Rocky Marciano, which would be grotesque and absurd.
So how does a titlist make 21 defences, retire with two belts, and rank only seventh? Lots of reasons. For one, Ottke never defended outside of Germany. That's a lot of home cooking, which partly explains four wins by split or majority decision. For another, there's nothing special about Ottke's list of challengers. There are some quality wins (Byron Mitchell, Charles Brewer, Mads Larsen, Glen Johnson, Silvio Branco) , but nothing that suggests entry into the pound-for-pound listings.
And let's not forget that in December '03, Ottke was given an early Christmas present when he outpointed Robin Reid.

8 FRANKIE LILES
The long lefty makes the list based on longevity; he made seven successful defences and reigned for the better part of five years.
I'd argue that Liles is a bit underrated, partly because his style was often negative and partly because his reign overlapped with higher-profile titlists like Jones and Benn. Moreover, Liles lacked a defining fight. Instead, he was the consistent type, defending mostly against good fighters like his arch-rival Tim Littles.
Liles's best win came in his first defence, against fellow southpaw and two-division titlist Michael Nunn in Ecuador. Nunn had only two losses at the time.
That Liles, who was never the best fighter at his weight, cracks the Top 10 speaks volumes of the relative immaturity of this division. Twenty-three years isn't enough to establish a solid list of exceptional champions.

9 CHONG PAL PARK
The second titlist in this division's history, Park was an oddity, only because there are very few Koreans fighting in the heavier weight classes. (Interestingly, another Korean, In Chul Baek, reigned at super middleweight in the late-'80s.)
As a two time titlist, Park made a combined nine successful defences. Eleven of his twelve world title fights took place in his homeland. He was a strong super middle, but the quality of his title fight opponents was relatively weak. For instance, Roy Gumbs and Emmanuel Otti were both coming off back-to-back losses, Indonesia's Polly Pasireron was 4-2, and Jesus Gallardo was a novice without a notable win.
The only impressive name of Park's list of victims is Lindell Holmes, and Park barely edged the American, who was a future world titlist.

10 MIKKEL KESSLER
Obviously, "The Viking Warrior" will ultimatly be measured by his performance against Calzaghe. At this point, including him in the Top 10 is based more on talent and potential than accomplishment.
Kessler is only 28, and he's the reigning titlist of two organisations. He's made four successful defences, and while there have been no creampuffs, the level of his title fight opposition hasn't been sterling. For instance, Markus Beyer was 35, and Eric Lukas, who hasn't fought since, had gone 2-2 in his previous four bouts.
What makes Calzaghe-Kessler so appetising is not only the combined record of 82-0, but also the fact that they're so clearly the two best fighters in their division. Two European champions fighting for global dominance - just as it should be at super middleweight.
www.boxingmonthly.com

[killersheep]

The Poll was before Calzaghe vs Kessler and the writer was American Steve Farhood (who has written for KO and The Ring Magazine).

Farhood said that if Joe beat Kessler then that would make him No.1.

That would be for current super middle weights, this is all time.

It was for all-time, Greg.

I like Kessler a lot, but I don't think he has any claim for an all-time SMW champ. I can't get my head around the justification of that. I think maybe it was hype for the fight?

[CGM]

Super Middleweight, p4p, over it's history, will go down as the weakest division of all time.

[Pugilistic]

I think accomplishment wise at 168 Calzaghe takes it no doubt.

Had both fighters faced each others in their prime at 168 Jones would win.

To me it goes to Joe due to his long reign there where Jones did nowhere near as much at 168.

[DaxxKahn]

To be an all time great at something or in a certain place you have to have spent some time there...Jones was only at SM for a short period...I don't even think he had 5 fights at the weight class......

Joe Calzaghe was a SMW for pretty much his whole career and managed to hold the reigns tightly,

I have to pick Joe Calzaghe at SMW for the reason of his longevity and ability to stay on top during that stay..

With that being said....

At SMW I think Roy Jones was the most talented fighter to ever grace this sport and that includes SRR....I do not mean over all in their careers but just the version of Jones at 168...IMO he was as close to being unbeatable as any fighter could possibly be.....

[RozzySean]

You can make a case that Steve Collins ranks a close third to Calzaghe. Two wins over prime Chris Eubanks, two wins over Nigel Benn (he was older, but so was Eubank when Calzaghe fought him), and Chris Pyatt. Frederic Seillier was also a decent win.

[Fenster]

You can make a case that Steve Collins ranks a close third to Calzaghe. Two wins over prime Chris Eubanks, two wins over Nigel Benn (he was older, but so was Eubank when Calzaghe fought him), and Chris Pyatt. Frederic Seillier was also a decent win.

You can only do that by judging their careers on paper.

Benn was well finished. And Eubank was arguably never really the same after the Watson fight - so a long way from his prime.

Calzaghe had never been past 8 rounds, so Eubank, even though not prime, was a BIG step-up in class for him. That's the difference.

[RozzySean]

You can make a case that Steve Collins ranks a close third to Calzaghe. Two wins over prime Chris Eubanks, two wins over Nigel Benn (he was older, but so was Eubank when Calzaghe fought him), and Chris Pyatt. Frederic Seillier was also a decent win.

You can only do that by judging their careers on paper.

Benn was well finished. And Eubank was arguably never really the same after the Watson fight - so a long way from his prime.

Calzaghe had never been past 8 rounds, so Eubank, even though not prime, was a BIG step-up in class for him. That's the difference.

That is the most illogical thing I've ever heard. I don't know how you can credit Calzaghe for beating Eubank, yet not fully credit Collins for beating a much younger, much better version. You also argued in another thread that Eubank wasn't shot against Calzaghe, only weight drained. You can't have it both ways, Fenster.

So what if Calzaghe had never been past 8. Kelly Pavlik didn't go past 9 until Taylor 2. Eubank might have been a step up for at that time, but how does that matter that Calzaghe hadn't gone past 8?

[Fenster]

You can make a case that Steve Collins ranks a close third to Calzaghe. Two wins over prime Chris Eubanks, two wins over Nigel Benn (he was older, but so was Eubank when Calzaghe fought him), and Chris Pyatt. Frederic Seillier was also a decent win.

You can only do that by judging their careers on paper.

Benn was well finished. And Eubank was arguably never really the same after the Watson fight - so a long way from his prime.

Calzaghe had never been past 8 rounds, so Eubank, even though not prime, was a BIG step-up in class for him. That's the difference.

That is the most illogical thing I've ever heard. I don't know how you can credit Calzaghe for beating Eubank, yet not fully credit Collins for beating a much younger, much better version. You also argued in another thread that Eubank wasn't shot against Calzaghe, only weight drained. You can't have it both ways, Fenster.

So what if Calzaghe had never been past 8. Kelly Pavlik didn't go past 9 until Taylor 2. Eubank might have been a step up for at that time, but how does that matter that Calzaghe hadn't gone past 8?

Hang on.. there's a world of difference between being "past your prime" and "shot."

Simply put the Eubank that faced Collins wasn't the very best version. So naturally he couldn't have been against Calzaghe either but was still far from being "shot."

The rounds matter because doing championship level distance is a big psychological plus for any fighter. In Calzaghe's case - how could he really know he had the stamina for it having never been beyond 8? He said himself he was knackered in the later rounds.

[Beanflicker]

On longevity and wins, Calzaghe.

On talent and who I think would win a fight between the two, Jones.

Calzaghe can't hold a candle to prime Roy. Roy was quicker of feet, hand, a harder puncher, harder to hit, with a better amateur pedigree.

[Galaxy]

Calzaghe!

Jones didn't get enough done at the weight. Sure on a P4P basis Jones is better all time but based on achievements at the weight its Calzaghe!

Remember Jones fought at heavyweight too & he was P4P #1 with his win over Ruiz, his ability & talent was miles ahead of many heavies but unfortunately he didn't get enough work done at the weight to make it matter imo!