Zen Master Pacfan and Taoist Andre.

[pacfan]

I’m back. It makes me a bit uncomfortable when I talk too much about Zen, because Zen is more about experiencing than intellectualizing. Most westerners misunderstand Zen and tend to intellectualize it too much. Once I browsed through a large book about Zen written by a western mystic. But you see Intellectualizing Zen is antithesis of Zen itself, which is basically a way of clearing mind of thoughts instead of thinking. When we talk of other ideas, it’s natural to intellectualize, but it shouldn’t be so with Zen. That’s why when I engage in a long discussion here (or anywhere for that matter), I have to occasionally refresh myself by clearing my mind through meditation. This is because when I engage in long discussions, after a while I tend to be drawn by the discussion itself and start to think again in the usual mundane way. The right ways of thinking is done by first clearing our minds completely of our usual thoughts and prejudices, and then wait for the right answer to come. This is the way many famous discoveries were made. Remember Edison’s 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration. Therefore, so as not to intellectualize Zen too much, I’ll just talk about my long journey on the way to (because I’m not there yet totally) enlightenment. Here it goes:


My long road to enlightenment


When I was just a teenager, I was taught the rudiments of meditation. During meditation, I was supposed to keep my attention on one object and was to avoid straying away from it. Few years later, I decided to seriously pursue my meditation because I wanted peace of mind; that is, free from all negative thoughts and feelings. (Just remember, thoughts and feelings are separate matters – but – thoughts almost always control our feelings)

But over the years, no matter what I did during meditation, I wasn’t able to get rid of those negative thoughts. So one day I just decided to give up the idea of getting rid of them, just like the ‘if you can’t beat ‘em,’ thing, but of course I had no intention of ‘joining ‘em.’ Strangely, when I started to just let those negative thoughts be, but ignoring them, they began to bother me lesser and lesser. By letting them be and ignoring them, I was actually taking the sting out of them and more importantly I was able to let them go. When that happened, I began to have less negative thoughts and they were not as disturbing as before.


- Let it be, let it go - the most important principle of meditation


However, they didn’t disappear totally so I started to wonder why. After a long soul-searching, I found that our mind must be occupied by some thoughts, at least at the normal level. But at the same time, I also realized that negative thoughts and positives ones couldn’t occupy the same space (mind) at one time. So I realized that I must put positive thoughts in a space vacated by the negative one so they wouldn’t come back again. [This answers one of your questions, Diz] From there on, it was a seesaw battle between the good and the evil (lol), I mean between the negative and positive thoughts. Gradually, the positive started to win over the negative, until one day, it was almost totally positive, at least when I was meditating.

When that happened, strange things start to occur in my mind [I hope it’s not starting to sound like a fairy tale]. When positive thoughts, with the accompanying positive feelings, started to dominate my mind, the thoughts themselves started to disappear, while leaving behind only the feelings (positive). In other words, I became almost totally thoughtless, while feeling good at the same time. Then I gradually started to get into the ‘Zen state’ that was described in Diz’s quotes and my previous post here. To describe it a bit, what you feel in that state immediately is the energy and the sense of space. Even when you are in a small crowded room, when you close your eyes, you seem to be in an infinite space with an added dimension. Aside from that, you’ll also feel the energy flowing in your body, and when you close your eyes, you only feel the energy and the energy seems to merge with the space beyond. My theory for this perhaps is that the energy that flows from the body also flows thru the space and the energies are probably flowing between the body and the space in a seamless manner. That probably explains why I feel totally connected with the space surrounding me – because I’m feeling the energy, not my body, which we usually feel during the ordinary state. This is the level of enlightenment I’m in at this moment…

* * * * * * * * * * * * *


Just remember the most important aspect of this philosophy I've learned - the principle of letting it be and letting go; here lies the most important secrets of meditation. Just recently, I think Andre quoted a famous Chinese philosopher something about holding on to or grabbing/grasping something, that was one good example of this principle. You may not understand the importance of this seemingly simple principle but if you pursue your Zen studies, eventually you will. Believe me, it's my nearly 30 year worth of wisdom that I gained thru meditation.


Ok, Dizaster, this all I can say on this topic. But if you have any question, you can post it here. I'll try my best to answer. Good luck, my friend.

[Andre]

What Echart has done Diz is got you to that point very fast by showing you tools within your mind that others have had to find on their own.
Its good.
It is all a journey, and there is no end and there is no pecking order.
Acceptance of what is and letting it go is the key to opening new doors that is all ,no great secrets.
Although there is many differrent roads home to yourself; some practices are harsh and fast and direct; others softer and more curved. Different schools of different practices. Each to their own in these cases; its a journey back into yourself ,not a race forwards into the unknown.

[Dizaster]

Everything above is brilliant... Far more than I expected to get back when I asked the original question...

I have lots to respond with but not much time to post right now, but I had another quick question..

I'm wanting do to some sort of practice that takes me out of my day and I can concentrate on relaxing, letting go etc. I found a Yoga video laying around and have done that twice, but it's not as relaxing as i'd hoped. A lot of the poses are straining and in my current not-so-fit state, it's more of a workout.
I'm thinking maybe tai-chi although i've found it hard to find any instruction on that, online anyway... I might go hire something on DVD..

A secondary question. I also would like to start a quick meditation each night.. It's very difficult because I don't have any time alone in my house. I have a lot of tasks to do, and would have to fit meditation in between them, adding to the resistance of coming to peace in the middle of that. I also don't really have a place in the house that is private and peaceful, and where I won't be interupted.. I have a small spare bedroom that is like a store room where old clothes and boxes etc are thrown everywhere..
It's the quietest room in the house though so i'm guessing this could be my place for it...

Do you have any tips for meditating in such an environment, or think I should try cleaning the room and preparing it in some way to be more relaxing?

I know that I need the time out of my day to let stuff go...

I've been on holidays from work for the past 4 weeks. For the first 3 I ran around doing all the things I thought I needed to do so that I could relax. Clean, paid bills, worked on my business idea, gardening etc... It was a relatively good feeling and I felt a bit of peace of mind that I had wiped these things off my mental checklist. -- But last Monday, even knowing that I still had stuff to do, I dropped it all and sat out in the sun for hours just reading. I was probably only outside for about 4 hours, but I felt better than night "achieving nothing" that day, than all the others where i'd gotten a tonne of stuff done... I also felt like i'd dropped a lot of mental tension that i'd carried my whole holidays...

I always feel like, if I have spare time in the evenings after work, I should spend it completing tasks so I can tick them off my list and hence, let go of the mental tension of it being needed to do.... I always feel like given spare time, I should be "productive" and that will make me feel better...

But i'm realising that sitting down for 30 minutes of peace at night is a thousand times better for me in just about every way, than searching for the next task to complete... My brain always tries to convince me that sitting down and thinking about and doing nothing is a waste of "time" - In meaning that time can be converted into productivity and "doing things" that need to be done... But taking the time out last week to just relax didn't even take me away from my tasks, and was more rewarding that "completing things".

So i'm sold on meditation or time out, being as valuable as anything else I could possibly have to do at night..

[Andre]

Everything above is brilliant... Far more than I expected to get back when I asked the original question...

I have lots to respond with but not much time to post right now, but I had another quick question..

I'm wanting do to some sort of practice that takes me out of my day and I can concentrate on relaxing, letting go etc. I found a Yoga video laying around and have done that twice, but it's not as relaxing as i'd hoped. A lot of the poses are straining and in my current not-so-fit state, it's more of a workout.
I'm thinking maybe tai-chi although i've found it hard to find any instruction on that, online anyway... I might go hire something on DVD..

A secondary question. I also would like to start a quick meditation each night.. It's very difficult because I don't have any time alone in my house. I have a lot of tasks to do, and would have to fit meditation in between them, adding to the resistance of coming to peace in the middle of that. I also don't really have a place in the house that is private and peaceful, and where I won't be interupted.. I have a small spare bedroom that is like a store room where old clothes and boxes etc are thrown everywhere..
It's the quietest room in the house though so i'm guessing this could be my place for it...

Do you have any tips for meditating in such an environment, or think I should try cleaning the room and preparing it in some way to be more relaxing?

I know that I need the time out of my day to let stuff go...

I've been on holidays from work for the past 4 weeks. For the first 3 I ran around doing all the things I thought I needed to do so that I could relax. Clean, paid bills, worked on my business idea, gardening etc... It was a relatively good feeling and I felt a bit of peace of mind that I had wiped these things off my mental checklist. -- But last Monday, even knowing that I still had stuff to do, I dropped it all and sat out in the sun for hours just reading. I was probably only outside for about 4 hours, but I felt better than night "achieving nothing" that day, than all the others where i'd gotten a tonne of stuff done... I also felt like i'd dropped a lot of mental tension that i'd carried my whole holidays...

I always feel like, if I have spare time in the evenings after work, I should spend it completing tasks so I can tick them off my list and hence, let go of the mental tension of it being needed to do.... I always feel like given spare time, I should be "productive" and that will make me feel better...

But i'm realising that sitting down for 30 minutes of peace at night is a thousand times better for me in just about every way, than searching for the next task to complete... My brain always tries to convince me that sitting down and thinking about and doing nothing is a waste of "time" - In meaning that time can be converted into productivity and "doing things" that need to be done... But taking the time out last week to just relax didn't even take me away from my tasks, and was more rewarding that "completing things".

So i'm sold on meditation or time out, being as valuable as anything else I could possibly have to do at night..

try laying down tense your toes relax them ,tense your feet relaxthem,tense calves relax them,al legs,relax,buttocks relax,stomache ,relax,back,shoulders,arms,neck ,jaw,face head .then you can relax totally and float away in it.
noise shouldnt really bother you so long as its not emotioanlly charged like an argumant etc the its all just background.

To get up early and meditate into the first morning sun is of real benifit.


There are free tutorials on some different meditations online,some are very good.

The American Monk has some free stuff online which is very cool too.

There is another guy an Asian fellow who puts up free meditation lessons too.

more later. watching ufc..

[Andre]

Mate there are so many ways and people find their own way for their own reasons at the right times.
Yoga can lead you in there through tension and relaxation and breath.

If you watch only your breath it works too.

There is a way also that you breathe in ever decreasing breaths in sync with the golden mean or the fibbriconni mathmatical pattern of life.

Whatever way you find,your going to benifit from heart and mind becomming more in sync.

My choice is different yet again and takes a certain amount of regimentation, theres no use me explaining it I cant but its called the Mer ka ba if you care to search and is from the wisdom schools of the middle east.

Another reported highest of meditations but from within yoga and from the north east in India/tibet etc is called Gayatri. It is split into three parts Mantra,Japa and Dhyana ,(the use of sacred phrases repeated)
It also incorperates finger positions, breathing and proper prounounciation of the sacred sounds as triggers and how to raise the kundalini through the gayatri meditation.
Kundalini is the life force or chi energy from within your reproductive system and if you can reverse this flow so it goes up your spinal column you will be in heaven mode. Gayartri is very involved and is from the Hindu and kristnas.
These types of meditations illuminate all those on the path of practice and produce the highest bliss, creativity and success.

[pacfan]

Everything above is brilliant... Far more than I expected to get back when I asked the original question...

I have lots to respond with but not much time to post right now, but I had another quick question..

I'm wanting do to some sort of practice that takes me out of my day and I can concentrate on relaxing, letting go etc. I found a Yoga video laying around and have done that twice, but it's not as relaxing as i'd hoped. A lot of the poses are straining and in my current not-so-fit state, it's more of a workout.
I'm thinking maybe tai-chi although i've found it hard to find any instruction on that, online anyway... I might go hire something on DVD..

A secondary question. I also would like to start a quick meditation each night.. It's very difficult because I don't have any time alone in my house. I have a lot of tasks to do, and would have to fit meditation in between them, adding to the resistance of coming to peace in the middle of that. I also don't really have a place in the house that is private and peaceful, and where I won't be interupted.. I have a small spare bedroom that is like a store room where old clothes and boxes etc are thrown everywhere..
It's the quietest room in the house though so i'm guessing this could be my place for it...

Do you have any tips for meditating in such an environment, or think I should try cleaning the room and preparing it in some way to be more relaxing?

I know that I need the time out of my day to let stuff go...

I've been on holidays from work for the past 4 weeks. For the first 3 I ran around doing all the things I thought I needed to do so that I could relax. Clean, paid bills, worked on my business idea, gardening etc... It was a relatively good feeling and I felt a bit of peace of mind that I had wiped these things off my mental checklist. -- But last Monday, even knowing that I still had stuff to do, I dropped it all and sat out in the sun for hours just reading. I was probably only outside for about 4 hours, but I felt better than night "achieving nothing" that day, than all the others where i'd gotten a tonne of stuff done... I also felt like i'd dropped a lot of mental tension that i'd carried my whole holidays...

I always feel like, if I have spare time in the evenings after work, I should spend it completing tasks so I can tick them off my list and hence, let go of the mental tension of it being needed to do.... I always feel like given spare time, I should be "productive" and that will make me feel better...

But i'm realising that sitting down for 30 minutes of peace at night is a thousand times better for me in just about every way, than searching for the next task to complete... My brain always tries to convince me that sitting down and thinking about and doing nothing is a waste of "time" - In meaning that time can be converted into productivity and "doing things" that need to be done... But taking the time out last week to just relax didn't even take me away from my tasks, and was more rewarding that "completing things".

So i'm sold on meditation or time out, being as valuable as anything else I could possibly have to do at night..

Some pointers on what you’ve said:

- Yoga and Tai chi are good if you can do them. I bought an Indian published yoga book long time ago and it was pretty good with some popular poses, but mostly, it talked more about ancient, yoga-related Hindu doctrines, from which I learned a lot. But I learned yoga postures suit best for those who have bodily tensions, while the spiritual exercise (meditation) for mental, as well as bodily, tension.


- Taking clutters out of your home, as well as your mind, is good. But some people find cluttered and crowded place more peaceful. I never felt peace with all the clutters around, but strangely, when I placed all the stuffs in boxes and stacked them neatly in one room, that room felt peaceful even though loaded with all the boxes. Probably, it’s not the amount of things that matters but it’s the neatness. Just find what suits you well.

- You seem to like reading, so if you wish, try reading those self-help or motivational books. Keep reading those stuffs does well to keep your mind on positive things. Choose the ones whose author are good motivators; some are really good. I used to read those kinds of books long time ago and I remember one of the best for motivation and encouragement was titled something like the Conquest of Frustration, byM. Maltzandaco-authorwhosenameI can’t remember.

-

So it’s pretty clear that you’re a busy body and a ‘tense’ sort of guy, which I used to be too. And you seem to want to keep yourself busy always, which makes you feel guilty when you think you’ve fooled around a bit. That worries me a bit particularly if you decide to meditate. So to motivate yourself for meditation, firstly, think of it as, or better yet, firmly believe that it’s, something superbly good for you, one of the best things you can do for yourself; that is, you are meditating because you want to improve yourself and your life. Secondly, never make it an obligation, but instead, always think that you will do it because you want to do it.

Having cleared the way a bit, now there are many sites on the net where they teach meditations. But beware. Many ones are either inadequate or a bit fakish, or to put it more nicely, just pretending to know. Be careful when they tell you to concentrate, because the word concentrate implies effort and there should be no effort, or at least not much, in meditation. But no doubt the ones Andre mentioned are the good ones. And remember this too, meditation is a way, not an end in itself. It’s a learning process. It’s like climbing up a thousand steps towards ‘masterhood’, and you start with the lowest step, going up slowly but surely, one at a time. It’s like playing a piano, the more you play, the more you learn and master it; so try not to keep your expectations too high because usually, after the initial euphoria, it starts to fade a bit. So try out whatever method you want from the net. But in the meantime, when your mind is so agitated and full of tension, try this simple method, though this is not a meditation in a strict sense:


Get yourself in a quiet, dark (the darker the better) place, sit comfortably in any position and close your eyes. Then, try to totally shut yourself out, sort of completely closing your mind of all things – thoughts, light, sounds, etc. If you have to wear earmuffs, do so (a plug-in earphones will do, but of course without the music). You can do this as long as you want, and then if you want to sleep or do a regular meditation, do so.


Try out whatever you want and if you have any problem, just let me know and I’ll try to help if I can. One thing I can say is that I am an expert of meditation, perhaps not yet a master, and probably I’ve meditated longer than most guys who teach it on the net.

[Andre]

Also sitting under an old tree helps ,preferably one with close grain like an oak.There is a certain energy around some older living things that are conducive to original peace and harmony.Middle of the ocean is another but it can kick up and try to kill you.
Top of a mountain. Middle of a forrest.
Morning or late afternoon sun imparts it too as well as other good stuff like some of the rarer vitamins too,the more skin you make available to it the better.

[pacfan]

I'm reluctant these days to teach anyone meditation. They get their expectations too high and when things don't go that well, they give up one by one. I forgot to tell them not to have too high an expectation from meditation. As any serious endeavor, there will be some ups and downs. Meditation is just a means, not an end by itself. It's just like going to school. Let's say you learn six years, and you get an elemetary level 'diploma' or certificate. You learn another couple years and you get a junior high 'diploma' and another few years, you finally get a high school diploma and so on. Just don't forget, it's a learning process, not an instant diploma, 'cause if it were, you'll end up getting a diploma from a diploma mill.

For those who persevered, you can start a more advance form of meditation by adding some visualization techniques. Visualizaion techniques is used in our karate exercises called katas, most common being visualizing energy coming from ground thru your body and coming out of your hand or fist during a strike. There's many variations and you can find them on the net. Try them and see what fits well for you. But remember, it's all about energy, especially positive ones... positve vibes...

[Master]

This is all above me, do I have to really comment?

[pacfan]

This is all above me, do I have to really comment?

No, this is only for the superstitious asians... ...wonder if australians qualify as asians...

[pacfan]

wait a second, this is supposed to be on the off topic board, how did it get here? Attn: mods, can you pls. move this to the off topic section.

[Andre]

wait a second, this is supposed to be on the off topic board, how did it get here? Attn: mods, can you pls. move this to the off topic section.

There was a slight melt down mate and things went squ wiff and some threads went awol and mia,you were fishing at the time so we blamed you.

[pacfan]

wait a second, this is supposed to be on the off topic board, how did it get here? Attn: mods, can you pls. move this to the off topic section.

There was a slight melt down mate and things went squ wiff and some threads went awol and mia,you were fishing at the time so we blamed you.

Thanks mate, I thought I really did something wrong, lol. Ah, the ol' fisherman thing. I live in a fishing town so I decided to use that symbolically, like the ol' Christian symbol of 'fishers of men.'

There were couple guys here asking me about meditation so I thought it's about time I updated a bit on it. I reckoned that by now if they persevered they are ready for a more advance form of meditation, the use of visualization. I just skimmed thru the net and good for me, there were plenty of sites about it and I thought I might let them, or anyone else interested in them, know about it. I think it's better that way since there are variations to it and so they can try and pick whatever that suits them most. After mastering basic meditation, it's time to add some visualization techniques...

[Andre]

wait a second, this is supposed to be on the off topic board, how did it get here? Attn: mods, can you pls. move this to the off topic section.

There was a slight melt down mate and things went squ wiff and some threads went awol and mia,you were fishing at the time so we blamed you.

Thanks mate, I thought I really did something wrong, lol. Ah, the ol' fisherman thing. I live in a fishing town so I decided to use that symbolically, like the ol' Christian symbol of 'fishers of men.'

There were couple guys here asking me about meditation so I thought it's about time I updated a bit on it. I reckoned that by now if they persevered they are ready for a more advance form of meditation, the use of visualization. I just skimmed thru the net and good for me, there were plenty of sites about it and I thought I might let them, or anyone else interested in them, know about it. I think it's better that way since there are variations to it and so they can try and pick whatever that suits them most. After mastering basic meditation, it's time to add some visualization techniques...

Good stuff the stage is yours.

[pacfan]

wait a second, this is supposed to be on the off topic board, how did it get here? Attn: mods, can you pls. move this to the off topic section.

There was a slight melt down mate and things went squ wiff and some threads went awol and mia,you were fishing at the time so we blamed you.

Thanks mate, I thought I really did something wrong, lol. Ah, the ol' fisherman thing. I live in a fishing town so I decided to use that symbolically, like the ol' Christian symbol of 'fishers of men.'

There were couple guys here asking me about meditation so I thought it's about time I updated a bit on it. I reckoned that by now if they persevered they are ready for a more advance form of meditation, the use of visualization. I just skimmed thru the net and good for me, there were plenty of sites about it and I thought I might let them, or anyone else interested in them, know about it. I think it's better that way since there are variations to it and so they can try and pick whatever that suits them most. After mastering basic meditation, it's time to add some visualization techniques...

Good stuff the stage is yours.

Hey, get your name back in here, Andre, that's an abuse of your 'moderatorship'!...
...and you know that I'm a lonely boy... When I first saw the title, I was sort of uncomfortable with it, like, I asked myself 'when did I became a Zen Master? But I kinda liked the sound so I kept quiet. Ya indeed the word master is sort of contrary to our philosopy where our I should be an i. The self or ego has been the source of most of the problems of mankind; Me, My and Mine to keep. A well-known priest here, who's also the source of my 1st and soon to follow joke on the joke thread, said that we human have been engaging in 'mining business' ever since. Human ego is the last of bestial instinct that separates us from the divine. They say we are half beast and half divine, take the beast out and we are divine. I think the end of the ego is beginning, like with some billionaires starting to donate most of their money to charities, and it's probably needed to survive the future world. Imagine if every Chinese and Indians started to own a car and started guzzling the gas, we'll be in pretty good trouble. World will need to cooperate in the future and forgo some of it's ego and work for mutual good in order to survive. A nice discussion but it'll need a whole new thread...

I'll wrap up my posts here for now by discussing what technique of visualization I myself use. Basically my technique comes from my old karate exercise used for developing the so-called inner strenght. It's supposed to be secret but over the years, I've found out that it's nothing more than a yoga exercise adapted to karate. It goes like this: During the kata or form exercise, when I draw my arms into a pre-strike position, I take a deep breathe and visualize energy coming from the ground into my body, and when I make a strike, I breathe out while visualizing that energy going out of my fist (or my knife hand) to far beyond.

So when I meditate, I just visualize energy circulating all around the universe coming from the ground, circulating around my body, and then going out of the top of the head to the universe beyond. Or reversely, the energy coming in from the head and down to the ground.

Just don't forget that visualization is just a tool or means. What is more important is the feeling. Try to feel the energy. When you feel something (I can't explain it exactly) like a subtle breeze flowing around your body, that's the energy... Andre has his own techniques, he taught me one. But you'll have to beg him on your knees to get one...