Question about a fighters "prime" / "past his best"

[hitmanhatton]

yes i agree you shouldnt take anything away from whoever beats them, but my argument is not that he is not one of the best in the world but he is not at HIS own personal best due to his age

[GAME]

yes i agree you shouldnt take anything away from whoever beats them, but my argument is not that he is not one of the best in the world but he is not at HIS own personal best due to his age

The problem is people arent conistant with it for example if they like a fighter he was past it when he lost but if they were glad to see him lose it had nothing to do with his prime

example

Nobody gave Berbick any credit for dominating Ali

[hitmanhatton]

yes i agree you shouldnt take anything away from whoever beats them, but my argument is not that he is not one of the best in the world but he is not at HIS own personal best due to his age

The problem is people arent conistant with it for example if they like a fighter he was past it when he lost but if they were glad to see him lose it had nothing to do with his prime

example

Nobody gave Berbick any credit for dominating Ali

but would ali have been in the top 10 p4p at the time ?

i think you have to judge everyone on their last performance

for example you cant treat calzaghes win over jones as if he had beat roy in his prime because it is obvious he was already declining before that however

say if someone was to beat hopkins now age shouldnt be considered the reason after the way he dominated pavlik

[Scrap]

Most Fighters know when they have lost it, they know. Its that period when they try and convince themselves they havent is trying to work around it thats the difficult bit.

[nola]

Does AGE determine whether or not a fighter is "past his best?"

Age of the current Ring P4P 10
1. Pacquiao (29) 2 weeks from 30
2. Marquez (35)
3. Calzaghe (36)
4. Hopkins (43)
5. Vazquez (30)
6. Margarito (30)
7. RMarquez (33)
8. Cotto (27)
9. Calderon (33)
10. Hatton (30)

Age really is just a number.

What most of these guys are bringing to the ring, what is making them the "best", is not JUST physical skills. Everyone of them has a level of experience that the "younger" fighters just don't have yet. It's what led Hopkins to take Hatton. (And props to Hatton, btw, for taking what Mayweather Sr had to teach him to heart. He learned a lot in a short amount of time and put a lot of it into practice, it just wasn't enough... )

But where Ricky was still learning his new mindset, Bernard has been there and back again - he was more comfortable in and able to adjust to Ricky's adjustments much more quickly. We see the same thing with the other fighters. Their bodies may be a little slower than they used to be in some cases, but their reflexes have become more ingrained, more instinctual, allowing them a little more time to think & react to their oponents.

They've "been there, done that", instead of just practicing it in training camp. So while they may be physically aging, they're still able to compensate and adapt. It's not until they lose that ability that they're "past their primes". And that's a mindset, not a number on a driver license.

[THE THIRD MAN]

In the case of Tszyu, he was past his prime and best when he fought Hatton.
We all got excited with his return against Mitchell, but he was inactive for 2 years with a shoulder injury prior to that fight and then to confront the young gun Hatton pushing age 36 was simply to much for him. No shame in losing to Hatton either.
He looked awful at the weigh in (drawn and gaunt) i knew then he would lose.
Age and inactivity will get boxers in the end as it does all sportsmen.
Do we say Berbick was better than Ali? Marciano better than Louis? or Camacho better than Leonard?
I doubt there would be anyone on this forum who would argue in the affirmative.
Mosley got past Mayorga in the finish but 7-8 years ago he would have finished him in less than 5 rounds.

[Kel]

In the case of Tszyu, he was past his prime and best when he fought Hatton.
We all got excited with his return against Mitchell, but he was inactive for 2 years with a shoulder injury prior to that fight and then to confront the young gun Hatton pushing age 36 was simply to much for him. No shame in losing to Hatton either.
He looked awful at the weigh in (drawn and gaunt) i knew then he would lose.
Age and inactivity will get boxers in the end as it does all sportsmen.
Do we say Berbick was better than Ali? Marciano better than Louis? or Camacho better than Leonard?
I doubt there would be anyone on this forum who would argue in the affirmative.
Mosley got past Mayorga in the finish but 7-8 years ago he would have finished him in less than 5 rounds.

You really didn't know he would lose. I watched Ricky from his 3rd pro fight onwards and I still was 100% he would get knocked out. It was the fight of his life, his career defining fight and he walked through Kostya's shots and showed more balls than anyone else could have. No one else at 140 now or then could have done what Ricky did that night. Sometimes a fighter just will not be denied, not ever, it was hattons night, he worked years for that one fight.

Ricky is still unbeaten at 140 and twatted the 'supposed' number 2 of the division with ease. I bet you any money Kostya is proud to have been beaten by a fighter who is still the best 140 out there.

[THE THIRD MAN]

In the case of Tszyu, he was past his prime and best when he fought Hatton.
We all got excited with his return against Mitchell, but he was inactive for 2 years with a shoulder injury prior to that fight and then to confront the young gun Hatton pushing age 36 was simply to much for him. No shame in losing to Hatton either.
He looked awful at the weigh in (drawn and gaunt) i knew then he would lose.
Age and inactivity will get boxers in the end as it does all sportsmen.
Do we say Berbick was better than Ali? Marciano better than Louis? or Camacho better than Leonard?
I doubt there would be anyone on this forum who would argue in the affirmative.
Mosley got past Mayorga in the finish but 7-8 years ago he would have finished him in less than 5 rounds.

You really didn't know he would lose. I watched Ricky from his 3rd pro fight onwards and I still was 100% he would get knocked out. It was the fight of his life, his career defining fight and he walked through Kostya's shots and showed more balls than anyone else could have. No one else at 140 now or then could have done what Ricky did that night. Sometimes a fighter just will not be denied, not ever, it was hattons night, he worked years for that one fight.

Ricky is still unbeaten at 140 and twatted the 'supposed' number 2 of the division with ease. I bet you any money Kostya is proud to have been beaten by a fighter who is still the best 140 out there.

I'm Not disagreeing with you, Hatton was a tall order and i think Tszyu made a big mistake taking him on in his own backyard. I was well aware of how good Hatton was before the fight and gave him a great chance to beat KT, when i saw the weigh in and with just 3 rounds in 2 years i thought you have bitten off more than you can chew here Kostya! Hatton will be regarded as a top 5 all time 140lb champion at the end of his career and that is some effort. I personally rate him 4th best behind Pryor, Tszyu and Chavez. I like the Fatboy!

[Fenster]

In the case of Tszyu, he was past his prime and best when he fought Hatton.
We all got excited with his return against Mitchell, but he was inactive for 2 years with a shoulder injury prior to that fight and then to confront the young gun Hatton pushing age 36 was simply to much for him. No shame in losing to Hatton either.
He looked awful at the weigh in (drawn and gaunt) i knew then he would lose.
Age and inactivity will get boxers in the end as it does all sportsmen.
Do we say Berbick was better than Ali? Marciano better than Louis? or Camacho better than Leonard?
I doubt there would be anyone on this forum who would argue in the affirmative.
Mosley got past Mayorga in the finish but 7-8 years ago he would have finished him in less than 5 rounds.

Those guys were all considered way past their best. Nobody currently has Mosley P4P - because everyone can see he's past his best.

Tszyu was still ranked P4P the 3rd BEST fighter in the WORLD.

Tszyu was EXPECTED to win by the majority.

What were the EXCUSES made when he lost eight years earlier to Phillips?

(i'm not Kostya bashing.. just he's an easy example to use )

[hitmanhatton]

you can still be on of the best in the world and be past your own best

for example in a football anology

thierry henry is not quite as quick and prolific as he once was but youd still rather have him in your team than emile heskey !!

as for mosley he was past his best when he fought cotto but pushed him close so cotto deserves credit as mosley was still a very good fighter, his performance against mayorga would suggest he has slipped further than him

in conclusion you dont have to be at YOUR best to be one of the best in the world

[Fenster]

you can still be on of the best in the world and be past your own best

for example in a football anology

thierry henry is not quite as quick and prolific as he once was but youd still rather have him in your team than emile heskey !!

as for mosley he was past his best when he fought cotto but pushed him close so cotto deserves credit as mosley was still a very good fighter, his performance against mayorga would suggest he has slipped further than him

in conclusion you dont have to be at YOUR best to be one of the best in the world

But then how do you determine when someone is showing THEIR very best?

Was Kostya at his best against Phillips? Was Mosley STILL at his best when first losing to Forrest? Or does the loss signal he was past it?

Have old boys like Calzaghe and Hopkins showed better form in their younger days?

I'm not sure.

[hitmanhatton]

well for hopkins yes he was faster and knocked people out which he doesnt tend to do these days

calzaghe maybe but it was never really noticed as it wasnt against big names ...

joe is saying he wants to retire soon and that every training camp becomes harder than the last, why do you think that is

[Fenster]

well for hopkins yes he was faster and knocked people out which he doesnt tend to do these days

calzaghe maybe but it was never really noticed as it wasnt against big names ...

joe is saying he wants to retire soon and that every training camp becomes harder than the last, why do you think that is

But Hopkins is now fighting BETTER fighters. Maybe that explains his lack of recent stoppage wins. By his own admission the Pavlik win was the BEST performance of his career.

Maybe it's the same for Calzaghe?

The bad hands seem the most logical excuse for the lack of recent KOs. Of course this, like the mental training camp struggles, is most likely due to age. But there hasn't really been a dip in his performance.. he is arguably better.

Maybe this prime stuff is really a load of bollocks. Unless it is OBVIOUS a fighter has clearly slipped badly.

[hitmanhatton]

some things can increase with age or at least dont go away as quickly but eventually the body will stop cooperating

maybe it all just depends on the fighters style and how much relies on physical gifts which can diminish

[THE THIRD MAN]

In the case of Tszyu, he was past his prime and best when he fought Hatton.
We all got excited with his return against Mitchell, but he was inactive for 2 years with a shoulder injury prior to that fight and then to confront the young gun Hatton pushing age 36 was simply to much for him. No shame in losing to Hatton either.
He looked awful at the weigh in (drawn and gaunt) i knew then he would lose.
Age and inactivity will get boxers in the end as it does all sportsmen.
Do we say Berbick was better than Ali? Marciano better than Louis? or Camacho better than Leonard?
I doubt there would be anyone on this forum who would argue in the affirmative.
Mosley got past Mayorga in the finish but 7-8 years ago he would have finished him in less than 5 rounds.

Those guys were all considered way past their best. Nobody currently has Mosley P4P - because everyone can see he's past his best.

Tszyu was still ranked P4P the 3rd BEST fighter in the WORLD.

Tszyu was EXPECTED to win by the majority.

What were the EXCUSES made when he lost eight years earlier to Phillips?

(i'm not Kostya bashing.. just he's an easy example to use )

First of all i still don't see how anyone ranked Tszyu that high, he was inactive for 2 years and then KO's Mitchell a fighter he had already beaten a few years earlier. No.3 ? Shit, even i was surprised by that. Yes, Tszyu was expected to win, but people simply forgot he was 35 pushing 36 and they underestimated his opponent, as did Tszyu by the way. As for the Phillips loss, it was an aberration, he should have pulled out of the fight due to illness (a gastro problem saw him enter the ring at closer to 137-138lb) some 8-10 lb lighter than Phillips on the night . Still he lost, he cameback and unified the division but the Fatman along with age and injury got him in the end.
Tszyu might be the easiest example, but he is the best example in recent years of how things turn for a fighter from being in their prime which in his case was 1998-2002 to being finished.