I just watched Pacquiao-Marquez 2

[KananKrus]

[quote=the_pRoDiGy;651449]I still can't believe how Pac dismantled Oscar and I got into this mood watching his exciting fights so I watched his last fight with Marquez again and IMO it seems like Pac really won. It was close when you look at the compubox numbers or Marquez should have even won if we looked at it punch for punch coz everytime Marquez landed his shots it was consecutive punches and was pretty and well timed plus Pac is out of balanced whenever he got hit.BUT.When I scored it round by round to me Pac clearly won.

rd 1. 10-9 Marquez
it was very close but got to give it to him for the tempo

rd 2. 10-9 Marquez
hit Pac with a great combo and a vicious left hook to end it

rd 3. 10-8 Pacquiao
scored a KD from a big left cross

rd 4. 10-9 Pacquiao
fed off the momentum of the KD

rd 5. 10-9 Marquez
recovered well and begins to connect with the right at will

rd 6. 10-9 Marquez
slow paced round and he landed the most telling shot

rd 7. 10-9 Pacquiao
accidental headbutt.a very close round but the tempo and the exchanges were in favor of him

rd 8. 10-9 Marquez
dominant round for him.connected big right hands that opened a cut on Pac's right eye.Pac was clearly bothered

rd 9. 10-9 Pacquiao
came back with his own connections of left hand that busted Marquez's right eye

rd 10. 10-9 Pacquiao
almost scored a KD and threw a barrage of flurries on a wobbled Marquez

rd 11. 10-9 Pacquiao
he seems to have figured out how to stay away from Marquez's right and sustained attacks continously

rd 12 10-10
Even.I can't say enough about this round. Marquez seems desperate and is throwing it all out but Pac is blocking almost all of it while still connecting even with less power. I initially gave it to Marquez but when I watched it again,like Manny Steward stated I too was impressed by how Pac defended the onslaught so I gave it to him. I can see why Lederman gave it to Pac. But most people say Marquez threw enough to get the round.Won't matter though IMO.

115-113 Pacquiao

IMO even if Marquez won the 12th he would have still lost because of the KD.

There were 3 very close rounds.(1, 7, 12) I scored the 1st for Marquez (HBO for Pac) the 7th in favor of Pac (everyone seems to agree) and the controversial 12th even.

But I if we give it all to Marquez he would win 7 rounds and may have salvaged a 114-113 win. If I give Pac those 3 close rounds he would win with comfortable 116-111 decision.

I think Marquez won in the CompuBox stats. and by how lopsided it looked during the rounds he won. Plus I think most people are assuming that because the fight went the distance it should have been Marquez's fight. Yes it was indeed a great gameplan by Marquez and he definitely made Pac looked most awkward and uncomfortable whenever they fight.But boxing is scored round by round so I don't think people should questioned Pac's victory saying Marquez got robbed. Let's give the man the credit he deserves and let's look at him as a fighter continually improving and entertaining us like he always does. (end)



I have the same scorecard, except giving rounds 11 and 12, a tossup or a flip flop; it was too close to call.

In the eight, I really thought it was Marquez' round to end Pacquiao. For whatever reason, he eased up on the pedal and let Pacquiao get back in the last four rounds. It was silly backtracking on Marquez', when the need clearly was to step-up, for the PacMan was seriously injured and fighting and defending inadequately.

I think in this fight, the Pac camp was out prepared. When JMM went back to his old ways*, after being aggressive his last few fights, it threw of their preparation. It was up to Pac to fight an intelligent fight, and bring it home for the team.

This Pacquiao, who fought JMM twice, is not even close to the Pacquiao (ala Duran/Pac version) whom DeLahoya, Diaz, Velasquez, and Barera I, all saw. So it is remarkable, and or lucky for Pacquiao to make a fight plan on the fly good enough to win, even by the narrowest of margins.

* I guess JMM was just stirring the hornet's nest, and once got a Pacquiao date, after 4 long years …went back to a strategy that they know will win, which is counter and combination. Avoiding an all out slugfest ala PacMan vs. EM II and III at all cost. Way of the wise, self-preservation in mind.

[the_PRODIGY]

1 Marquez
2 Marquez
3 Pacquiao 10-8
4 Pacquiao
5 Marquez
6 Marquez
7 Pacquiao
8 Marquez
9 Pacquiao
10 Pacquiao
11 Marquez
12 Marquez

Same score i had last time 114-113 Marquez, i thought Marquez pulled it out in the championship rounds.

the last two rounds were the only thing we disagreed. I gave Pac the 11th and scored the 12th even. Please watch the last two rounds again. I knew Marquez threw a lot of punches but I didn't think he landed that many. While Pac was suddenly jabbing and throwing hooks with his right and lead left hands. I remember Emmanuel Steward and Larry Merchant noticed how Pac was doing a great job defensively. And after the 11th Lampley (who I think had a huge bet for Marquez ) even added Marquez may have to knock Pacquiao out to win. I didn't think they will say those words if Marquez won the round convingly. same goes for the 12th. I think Marquez threw more punches but it's Pac defense and boxing that stood out to me.

[ICB]

1 Marquez
2 Marquez
3 Pacquiao 10-8
4 Pacquiao
5 Marquez
6 Marquez
7 Pacquiao
8 Marquez
9 Pacquiao
10 Pacquiao
11 Marquez
12 Marquez

Same score i had last time 114-113 Marquez, i thought Marquez pulled it out in the championship rounds.

the last two rounds was the only thing we disagreed. I gave Pac the 11th and scored the 12th even. Please watch the last two rounds again. I knew Marquez threw a lot of punches but he didn't think he landed that many. While Pac was suddenly jabbing and throwing hooks with his right and lead left hands. I remember Emmanuel Steward and Larry Merchant noticed how Pac was doing a great job defensively. And after the 11th Lampley (who I think had a huge bet for Marquez ) even added Marquez may have to knock Pacquiao out to win. I don't think they will say those words if Marquez won the round convingly. same goes for the 12th. I think Marquez threw more punches but it's Pac defense and boxing that stood out to me.

Manny Pacquiao may have been good defensively, but JMM carried the round being aggressive. And out punching Manny Pacquiao. I just watched the round again. And in the 2nd half of the round JMM controlled the round.

He landed some good right hands and a few thumping body shots, Manny Pacquiao fought too cautiously. And he allowed JMM to win the round being more aggressive and controlling a majority of the round.

As for the 12th round which im rewatching right now, JMM started off the round landing a nice uppercut then a right hand. Then some nice head/body shots. He clearly controlled the first half of the round.

Then Manny Pacquiao tried to comeback, but JMM got the better of the exchanges. He landed a good overhand right that drove Manny Pacquiao back to the ropes.

JMM just out fought Manny Pacquiao in the last two rounds, and he made Manny Pacquiao go on the backfoot for quite alot of those rounds aswell. I thought JMM clearly won the last 2 rounds tactically, and he clearly won them by out fighting Manny Pacquiao.

Those last 2 rounds wern't that close IMO, i thought JMM clearly had an edge in both of those rounds no question.

[ICB]

By the way i found my scorecard for the first fight.

1 Pacquiao 10-6
2 Pacquiao 10-9
3 Marquez 10-9
4 Marquez 10-9
5 Marquez 10-9
6 Marquez 10-9
7 Pacquiao 10-9
8 Marquez 10-9
9 Marquez 10-9
10 Pacquiao 10-9
11 Marquez 10-9
12 Marquez 10-9

114-113 Marquez

[the_PRODIGY]

1 Marquez
2 Marquez
3 Pacquiao 10-8
4 Pacquiao
5 Marquez
6 Marquez
7 Pacquiao
8 Marquez
9 Pacquiao
10 Pacquiao
11 Marquez
12 Marquez

Same score i had last time 114-113 Marquez, i thought Marquez pulled it out in the championship rounds.

the last two rounds was the only thing we disagreed. I gave Pac the 11th and scored the 12th even. Please watch the last two rounds again. I knew Marquez threw a lot of punches but he didn't think he landed that many. While Pac was suddenly jabbing and throwing hooks with his right and lead left hands. I remember Emmanuel Steward and Larry Merchant noticed how Pac was doing a great job defensively. And after the 11th Lampley (who I think had a huge bet for Marquez ) even added Marquez may have to knock Pacquiao out to win. I don't think they will say those words if Marquez won the round convingly. same goes for the 12th. I think Marquez threw more punches but it's Pac defense and boxing that stood out to me.

Manny Pacquiao may have been good defensively, but JMM carried the round being aggressive. And out punching Manny Pacquiao. I just watched the round again. And in the 2nd half of the round JMM controlled the round.

He landed some good right hands and a few thumping body shots, Manny Pacquiao fought too cautiously. And he allowed JMM to win the round being more aggressive and controlling a majority of the round.

As for the 12th round which im rewatching right now, JMM started off the round landing a nice uppercut then a right hand. Then some nice head/body shots. He clearly controlled the first half of the round.

Then Manny Pacquiao tried to comeback, but JMM got the better of the exchanges. He landed a good overhand right that drove Manny Pacquiao back to the ropes.

JMM just out fought Manny Pacquiao in the last two rounds, and he made Manny Pacquiao go on the backfoot for quite alot of those rounds aswell. I thought JMM clearly won the last 2 rounds tactically, and he clearly won them by out fighting Manny Pacquiao.

Those last 2 rounds wern't that close IMO, i thought JMM clearly had an edge in both of those rounds no question.

Fair play. But I guess we really have different perspectives. I just thought fans and some critics did gave those rounds to Marquez because of the perception that Pacquiao is only supposed to win a round when he completely mauls or scored a KD against Marquez. IMO he boxed beautifully in those rounds and that kinda caught the fans offguard and almost everyone bought on Marquez being the aggressor and they were left the impression that Pac faded or got tamed on the latter rounds. But I'm glad the judges agreed with me or should I say I agreed with them.

[the_PRODIGY]

By the way i found my scorecard for the first fight.

1 Pacquiao 10-6
2 Pacquiao 10-9
3 Marquez 10-9
4 Marquez 10-9
5 Marquez 10-9
6 Marquez 10-9
7 Pacquiao 10-9
8 Marquez 10-9
9 Marquez 10-9
10 Pacquiao 10-9
11 Marquez 10-9
12 Marquez 10-9

114-113 Marquez

This fight was a nightmare to score but I knew Marquez deserves to win this one. It may have been a draw but I didn't have any complaints when Marquez went home with the belts. After all I'm not a fan of Pacquiao back then. I rooted against him on the first couple Morales fights until the 3rd fight. I just prayed he won't kill my favorite fighter but I knew from then I'm starting to like the guy.

[KananKrus]

1 Marquez
2 Marquez
3 Pacquiao 10-8
4 Pacquiao
5 Marquez
6 Marquez
7 Pacquiao
8 Marquez
9 Pacquiao
10 Pacquiao
11 Marquez
12 Marquez

Same score i had last time 114-113 Marquez, i thought Marquez pulled it out in the championship rounds.

the last two rounds were the only thing we disagreed. I gave Pac the 11th and scored the 12th even. Please watch the last two rounds again. I knew Marquez threw a lot of punches but I didn't think he landed that many. While Pac was suddenly jabbing and throwing hooks with his right and lead left hands. I remember Emmanuel Steward and Larry Merchant noticed how Pac was doing a great job defensively. And after the 11th Lampley (who I think had a huge bet for Marquez ) even added Marquez may have to knock Pacquiao out to win. I didn't think they will say those words if Marquez won the round convingly. same goes for the 12th. I think Marquez threw more punches but it's Pac defense and boxing that stood out to me.

I have watched it so many times. I can actually play it in my mind, all's I need is just a bit of a reminder then I am transfixed back in my favorite armchair/sofa, watching it through my mind's eye.

That is the reason why without watching it, as soon as I saw your list and the rounds you favored Pac, and vice versa with JMM, I knew we saw the "same" fight. A lot of people with the least minimum bias will see it differently, not to say that I myself don’t have bias.

Of the rounds for Marquez, 1, 2, 5, 6, and 8; only round 2, where he rocked Manny and almost put his seat on the floor, and round 8, causing a gash in Manny’s face, temporarily blinding him, are decisive rounds for Marquez. All the rest were a one counterpunch, or one combination margin on each round.

I guess you make a case with round 4 for Pacquiao. However, 3 is a 10-8 for Pac with the knockdown, 7 was after the unintentional clashing of the heads, with Manny afterwards coming out peppering on the gash, 9 was a bounce back, clearly Marquez cautious and a bit gassed after the 8th. And lastly, like you pointed out, the 10th, almost saw JMM in his favorite rest’, the canvas bed.

As for the 11th and the 12th, I am to watch it up again, with particular attention to commentaries, yours and ICB’s.

[pacfan]

1 Marquez
2 Marquez
3 Pacquiao 10-8
4 Pacquiao
5 Marquez
6 Marquez
7 Pacquiao
8 Marquez
9 Pacquiao
10 Pacquiao
11 Marquez
12 Marquez

Same score i had last time 114-113 Marquez, i thought Marquez pulled it out in the championship rounds.

the last two rounds was the only thing we disagreed. I gave Pac the 11th and scored the 12th even. Please watch the last two rounds again. I knew Marquez threw a lot of punches but I didn't think he landed that many. While Pac was suddenly jabbing and throwing hooks with his right and lead left hands. I remember Emmanuel Steward and Larry Merchant noticed how Pac was doing a great job defensively. And after the 11th Lampley (who I think had a huge bet for Marquez ) even added Marquez may have to knock Pacquiao out to win. I don't think they will say those words if Marquez won the round convingly. same goes for the 12th. I think Marquez threw more punches but it's Pac defense and boxing that stood out to me.

11th round is the crucial round here. If the 11th is changed in favor of pac on Ice's scorecard, you've got pac winning by 1 point. I think Taeth also has been pointing that out too. I had pac winning by 2 (and I'm a pretty fair fan 'cause I've always conceded here that Marquez won the 1st fight). I think 1 reason why many 'experts' at the ringside - yup, the same fellows who favored Oscar 19-1 against pac - gave Marquez the fight is that probably their impression of the 1st fight influenced their decision. I think pac won even when he was definitely dehydrated (look at weigh-in pics) and looked a bit wobbly at the later rounds on both the Marquez and Barrera rematches. Someone hinted that just before the fight on his thread and I sort of agreed with him on my post there. IMO, Marquez has no chance against strong pac - I mean pac without the weight problem. Nevertheless, I think Marquez still deserves another rematch just to settle the issue particularly for his fans, but the fight has to be at 140 as pac already said he can't go down to 135lb anymore. Or better yet, let Hatton and Marquez fight and let the winner take on pac. But at any rate, the tapes of the fight are there as evidence for the future guys to see who really won and there should be no doubt there, or at least there was no robbery, and I'm pretty comfortable with it.

[C-Lo]

Prodigy. Great analysis!

When it comes to the first fight, as many times as I've watched it, I've had a different outcome. It was that good of a fight. I think a draw was a good way to make everyone want a second fight.

The second fight I always have Manny winning by one point. I agree if either got the decision it would have been just as fair. I think the round I disagree on with most scorecards is round 1. I think Manny lands more punches than Marquez does. Juan lands the biggest punch of the round, but Manny controlled it for the most part.

[Taeth]

I still can't believe how Pac dismantled Oscar and I got into this mood watching his exciting fights so I watched his last fight with Marquez again and IMO it seems like Pac really won. It was close when you look at the compubox numbers or Marquez should have even won if we looked at it punch for punch coz everytime Marquez landed his shots it was consecutive punches and was pretty and well timed plus Pac is out of balanced whenever he got hit.BUT.When I scored it round by round to me Pac clearly won.

rd 1. 10-9 Marquez
it was very close but got to give it to him for the tempo

rd 2. 10-9 Marquez
hit Pac with a great combo and a vicious left hook to end it

rd 3. 10-8 Pacquiao
scored a KD from a big left cross

rd 4. 10-9 Pacquiao
fed off the momentum of the KD

rd 5. 10-9 Marquez
recovered well and begins to connect with the right at will

rd 6. 10-9 Marquez
slow paced round and he landed the most telling shot

rd 7. 10-9 Pacquiao
accidental headbutt.a very close round but the tempo and the exchanges were in favor of him

rd 8. 10-9 Marquez
dominant round for him.connected big right hands that opened a cut on Pac's right eye.Pac was clearly bothered

rd 9. 10-9 Pacquiao
came back with his own connections of left hand that busted Marquez's right eye

rd 10. 10-9 Pacquiao
almost scored a KD and threw a barrage of flurries on a wobbled Marquez

rd 11. 10-9 Pacquiao
he seems to have figured out how to stay away from Marquez's right and sustained attacks continously

rd 12 10-10
Even.I can't say enough about this round. Marquez seems desperate and is throwing it all out but Pac is blocking almost all of it while still connecting even with less power. I initially gave it to Marquez but when I watched it again,like Manny Steward stated I too was impressed by how Pac defended the onslaught so I gave it to him. I can see why Lederman gave it to Pac. But most people say Marquez threw enough to get the round.Won't matter though IMO.

115-113 Pacquiao

IMO even if Marquez won the 12th he would have still lost because of the KD.

There were 3 very close rounds.(1, 7, 12) I scored the 1st for Marquez (HBO for Pac) the 7th in favor of Pac (everyone seems to agree) and the controversial 12th even.

But I if we give it all to Marquez he would win 7 rounds and may have salvaged a 114-113 win. If I give Pac those 3 close rounds he would win with comfortable 116-111 decision.

I think Marquez won in the CompuBox stats. and by how lopsided it looked during the rounds he won. Plus I think most people are assuming that because the fight went the distance it should have been Marquez's fight. Yes it was indeed a great gameplan by Marquez and he definitely made Pac looked most awkward and uncomfortable whenever they fight.But boxing is scored round by round so I don't think people should questioned Pac's victory saying Marquez got robbed. Let's give the man the credit he deserves and let's look at him as a fighter continually improving and entertaining us like he always does.


P.S.
I knew I'm still in awe from last saturday's fight but I think I didn't looked or sounded like a hugger. Do I liked Pacquiao? Yes.. but I'm not quite there yet.

I don't see how you gave 1 or two to Marquez, but I didn't have the last four 3-0-1 in favor of Pacquiao I thought Marquez won a round or two in tehre, all in all I had the same outcome, but my rounds are arranged differently.

[Taeth]

By the way i found my scorecard for the first fight.

1 Pacquiao 10-6
2 Pacquiao 10-9
3 Marquez 10-9
4 Marquez 10-9
5 Marquez 10-9
6 Marquez 10-9
7 Pacquiao 10-9
8 Marquez 10-9
9 Marquez 10-9
10 Pacquiao 10-9
11 Marquez 10-9
12 Marquez 10-9

114-113 Marquez

Pacquiao won more late rounds than that.

In the rematch.
Pacquiao clearly won a close fight, the knockdown seals it, IF that hadn't happened I could see it going either way, but it did, and made the close fight go clearly in PAcquiao's favor.

[ICB]

By the way i found my scorecard for the first fight.

1 Pacquiao 10-6
2 Pacquiao 10-9
3 Marquez 10-9
4 Marquez 10-9
5 Marquez 10-9
6 Marquez 10-9
7 Pacquiao 10-9
8 Marquez 10-9
9 Marquez 10-9
10 Pacquiao 10-9
11 Marquez 10-9
12 Marquez 10-9

114-113 Marquez

Pacquiao won more late rounds than that.

In the rematch.
Pacquiao clearly won a close fight, the knockdown seals it, IF that hadn't happened I could see it going either way, but it did, and made the close fight go clearly in PAcquiao's favor.

Taeth thats your opinion doesn't mean its right, i've gave valid reasons why i thought JMM won the 2nd fight. I don't really want to watch the first fight again.

Just to give all my reasons, why i thought he won. But from my memory Manny Pacquiao. Clearly wasn't the fighter he was in the 2nd fight. He was much easier to hit, and one dimensional with his punches.

And i thought until the later rounds where he did make it more competitive. He got outboxed clearly for about 6 rounds, they were both very close fights that could of gone either way.

Im a bit suprised you clearly think Manny Pacquiao won the 2nd fight, considering most experts and fans have it no wider than 2 points either way. All in all i thought JMM won both fights end of really, your not going to change my opinion because i've watched the fights loads of times and i have the same score each time.

[KananKrus]

If you let the commentators sway your view for the 11th and the 12th, then you definitely will give both rounds to JMM. Actually if you do so, then even just after the 2nd round, right before the Marquez kissing the canvas, it was predicted, by one of the color commentators that Pacquiao will be knocked out. A biased statement as commentators is wont to do. Pacquiao would have already lost!

[KananKrus]

Now, if you watch it without audio, you will have it as prodigy’s… eleventh round for Pacquiao, and twelfth a draw.

[ICB]

If you let the commentators sway your view for the 11th and the 12th, then you definitely will give both rounds to JMM. Actually if you do so, then even just after the 2nd round, right before the Marquez kissing the canvas, it was predicted, by one of the color commentators that Pacquiao will be knocked out. A biased statement as commentators is wont to do. Pacquiao would have already lost!

I've watched the fight with and without commentary, and what has the commentary got to do with this anyway ? i remember them clearly being on Manny Pacquiao's side not JMM's side.

Harold Ledderman had Manny Pacquiao winning, Emanuel Steward kept going on about how great Manny Pacquiao's upper body movement was. And his timing so i don't really see your point.

And even if they were on JMM's side which they wern't. I wouldn't listen anyway i've got my own views.