Even if it only till the outcome of Pac/Hatton JMM is PFP#1

[Gandalf]

Marquez is the P4P No 1 as far as I'm concerned. He has proven himself as good as Manny Pac and he has cleaned out 135 the way it should be done.

[JT Rock]

I'm sorry Bilbo but I dont agree with your logic... JMM is a 35 year old fighter with 16 years experience and many of wars, he just absolutely crushed in brutal fashion a peak prime 135 pound relentless pressure fighting whirlwind who 3 fights ago was considered toast of the division even though Casamayor got a XMAS present against Santa Cruz...

a year ago 99% considered Diaz the Champ of the division, Marquez beat him at his own game knocked him down 2x and sparked him out cold... Diaz has never been stopped before.

Against Casamoyar a 1st ballot Hall Of Famer and can argue his resume is as good as Delahoya's in terms of who he's fought and beat... JMM stopped him, 1st man ever to do that too...

So JMM moves up in weight like Pac, Beats the ring #1 champ, Pac fought a pathetic title holder, Pac fights a zombie version of Delahoya, JMM beats the former #1-2 fighter at 135 in Diaz.

The proof is in the puddind

JMM is the real McCoy, no doubt about it#1 unless Pac can beat Hatton, if not JMM stays #1

[Kev]

I'm sorry Bilbo but I dont agree with your logic... JMM is a 35 year old fighter with 16 years experience and many of wars, he just absolutely crushed in brutal fashion a peak prime 135 pound relentless pressure fighting whirlwind who 3 fights ago was considered toast of the division even though Casamayor got a XMAS present against Santa Cruz...

a year ago 99% considered Diaz the Champ of the division, Marquez beat him at his own game knocked him down 2x and sparked him out cold... Diaz has never been stopped before.

Against Casamoyar a 1st ballot Hall Of Famer and can argue his resume is as good as Delahoya's in terms of who he's fought and beat... JMM stopped him, 1st man ever to do that too...

So JMM moves up in weight like Pac, Beats the ring #1 champ, Pac fought a pathetic title holder, Pac fights a zombie version of Delahoya, JMM beats the former #1-2 fighter at 135 in Diaz.

The proof is in the puddind

JMM is the real McCoy, no doubt about it#1 unless Pac can beat Hatton, if not JMM stays #1

I completely agree that JMM is the real McCoy he is an awesome fighter no doubt, but you can't put him at number 1 in the p4p rankings off the back of that win in place of the guy who holds a win over him just a couple fights ago.

And everything you said about Diaz applies pretty much to De La Hoya. Oscar had never been beaten up, only stopped once bymiddleweight king B Hop and had just lost a split decision to the p4p's best.

Marquez knocked Diaz out but he wasn't the first to beat him, Nate Campbell dominated Juan Diaz from the first bell and beat him far easier than Marquez did.

Unless you believe Nate is a top 10 p4p fighter your argument holds no logic to me.

Yes Marquez is great, yes he's unquestionably number 2 in the world but he can't leapfrog a man who beat him a year ago and then leapt not one, not two, but three weight classes and dominated and destroyed a living legend in De La Hoya.

Imo you are only detracting from Marquez's brilliant acomplishments by trying to make claims that cannot be backed up.

Marquez lost to Pacquaio in an extremely close fight hence he cannot be p4p number 1 in the world until he either avenges that defeat or Manny loses.

That's just the way boxing works. Manny defeated a fighter in Oscar that no boxing expert in the world expected him to do, whilst Marquez won a fight with Juan Diaz in which he was the slight favourite going in anyway seeing as Diaz had already been completely manhandled by a 36 veteran only two fights before.

If Manny loses to Hatton I'd have no problem putting Marquez as number 1 in the world but until then Manny is still the man.

[Kev]

I should add here that imo it's emotion that is causing people to react like this.

MArquez was getting overwhelmed in the early rounds by Diaz and so it made his comeback and subsuequent destruction of Diaz that much sweeter, it also happened to be a hugely competitive and exciting fight.

Pacquaio on the other hand completely outclassed and dominated Oscar from the very first bell so people are less impressed and just conclude that Oscar was weight drained and shot.

That's not fair imo, what more could Manny have done? He totally owned Oscar, beat him down and made him quit on his stool, there's simply nothing more he could have done to win more impressively hence how in the world can he drop DOWN from number one in the world?

[JT Rock]

Pac has not lived up to quality of Competiton.. Usually you have dogged Delahoya time and time again, so I find it weird that you are over hyping manny's win over him, especially at 147 were Delahoya hadnt fought in 10 years and ended up weighing 2 lbs less than Pac going into the ring

Manny was weight 147 fight night when he was at 130, so its not like uncharted waters for him, DLH only shot was going to be weight advantage EVERYONE guessed Oscar was going to weigh 157-160 that night, even his former trainer Steward said that was routine when he fought 147 10 years ago...

JMM beating Casamayor was just as impressive as Pac over Delahoya, compare resumes and activity levels of those 2 and Id give joel the edge. Casamayor wasnt a cash cow like DLH so you wouldnt think of them being comparable career wise, but they are.

Diaz vs Diaz, not even a comparison... a split desicion lost to campbell certainly pails in comparison to a brutal KO from accumulation..

In a 3 fight vacuum, I see it as Pac had a controversial desicion that over 80% of boxinf writers and analysts gave the nod to JMM, couple that with JMM level of competition over the next 2 fights eclipses Pac by a landslide... That circus win over a freeze dried Delahoya isint better than JMM moving up in weight, beating the ring Champion of the 135 pound beating then #2 guy both by Brutal KO...

[Kev]

Pac has not lived up to quality of Competiton.. Usually you have dogged Delahoya time and time again, so I find it weird that you are over hyping manny's win over him, especially at 147 were Delahoya hadnt fought in 10 years and ended up weighing 2 lbs less than Pac going into the ring

Manny was weight 147 fight night when he was at 130, so its not like uncharted waters for him, DLH only shot was going to be weight advantage EVERYONE guessed Oscar was going to weigh 157-160 that night, even his former trainer Steward said that was routine when he fought 147 10 years ago...

JMM beating Casamayor was just as impressive as Pac over Delahoya, compare resumes and activity levels of those 2 and Id give joel the edge. Casamayor wasnt a cash cow like DLH so you wouldnt think of them being comparable career wise, but they are.

Diaz vs Diaz, not even a comparison... a split desicion lost to campbell certainly pails in comparison to a brutal KO from accumulation..

In a 3 fight vacuum, I see it as Pac had a controversial desicion that over 80% of boxinf writers and analysts gave the nod to JMM, couple that with JMM level of competition over the next 2 fights eclipses Pac by a landslide... That circus win over a freeze dried Delahoya isint better than JMM moving up in weight, beating the ring Champion of the 135 pound beating then #2 guy both by Brutal KO...

It has nothing to do with me either liking or disliking a fighter it's all about the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.

I am objective, Pacquaio was the officially declared winner of the fight between him and Marquez and won by decisive knockout over 6 weight world champ and first ballot Hall of Famer Oscar De La Hoya and moved up 3 weight classes to do so.

These results mean that objectively speaking Pacman is p4p number 1 in the world.

You are expressing nothing more than your opinion. In your opinion, the fight between Marquez and Pacquaio should have gone to Marquez, and again in your opinion Manny's win over De La Hoya wasn't as impressive as Marquez's own victory over Juan Diaz.


So what you are in effect claiming, is that it better to use your opinon, to evaluate the merits of respective fighter achievements than it is to go judge acomplishments by actual official fight results.

This is just an illogical stance.

How do you suppose to convince the Ring Magazine that instead of basing their rankings on the official fight outcomes and traditional longstanding rating criteria in favour of basing their rankings on the subjective opinion of casual fans in internet boxing forums?

How is more accurate or good for boxing would it be if the Ring were able to pick and choose which judging decisions they agreed with or not, and which fighter's in their subjective opinion had the harder fight on the night against certain opposition?

It would descend the whole p4p ratings into a farce.

Manny beat Juan Manuel Marquez in a close fight, and then moved up 3 weight classes to beat 6 weight world champ and boxing legend Oscar De La Hoya.

Marquez lost to Manny Pacquaio in a close fight then moved up one weight class and defeated a young exciting former champion in Juan Diaz.

Those are the facts, any subjective embelishments you wish to add or subtract from those facts remain just your opinion, which has no more merit than the opinion of anyone else.

Rankings need to be based on objectivity not subjectivity.

[Gandalf]

Pac has not lived up to quality of Competiton.. Usually you have dogged Delahoya time and time again, so I find it weird that you are over hyping manny's win over him, especially at 147 were Delahoya hadnt fought in 10 years and ended up weighing 2 lbs less than Pac going into the ring

Manny was weight 147 fight night when he was at 130, so its not like uncharted waters for him, DLH only shot was going to be weight advantage EVERYONE guessed Oscar was going to weigh 157-160 that night, even his former trainer Steward said that was routine when he fought 147 10 years ago...

JMM beating Casamayor was just as impressive as Pac over Delahoya, compare resumes and activity levels of those 2 and Id give joel the edge. Casamayor wasnt a cash cow like DLH so you wouldnt think of them being comparable career wise, but they are.

Diaz vs Diaz, not even a comparison... a split desicion lost to campbell certainly pails in comparison to a brutal KO from accumulation..

In a 3 fight vacuum, I see it as Pac had a controversial desicion that over 80% of boxinf writers and analysts gave the nod to JMM, couple that with JMM level of competition over the next 2 fights eclipses Pac by a landslide... That circus win over a freeze dried Delahoya isint better than JMM moving up in weight, beating the ring Champion of the 135 pound beating then #2 guy both by Brutal KO...

It has nothing to do with me either liking or disliking a fighter it's all about the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.

I am objective, Pacquaio was the officially declared winner of the fight between him and Marquez and won by decisive knockout over 6 weight world champ and first ballot Hall of Famer Oscar De La Hoya and moved up 3 weight classes to do so.

These results mean that objectively speaking Pacman is p4p number 1 in the world.

You are expressing nothing more than your opinion. In your opinion, the fight between Marquez and Pacquaio should have gone to Marquez, and again in your opinion Manny's win over De La Hoya wasn't as impressive as Marquez's own victory over Juan Diaz.


So what you are in effect claiming, is that it better to use your opinon, to evaluate the merits of respective fighter achievements than it is to go judge acomplishments by actual official fight results.

This is just an illogical stance.

How do you suppose to convince the Ring Magazine that instead of basing their rankings on the official fight outcomes and traditional longstanding rating criteria in favour of basing their rankings on the subjective opinion of casual fans in internet boxing forums?

How is more accurate or good for boxing would it be if the Ring were able to pick and choose which judging decisions they agreed with or not, and which fighter's in their subjective opinion had the harder fight on the night against certain opposition?

It would descend the whole p4p ratings into a farce.

Manny beat Juan Manuel Marquez in a close fight, and then moved up 3 weight classes to beat 6 weight world champ and boxing legend Oscar De La Hoya.

Marquez lost to Manny Pacquaio in a close fight then moved up one weight class and defeated a young exciting former champion in Juan Diaz.

Those are the facts, any subjective embelishments you wish to add or subtract from those facts remain just your opinion, which has no more merit than the opinion of anyone else.

Rankings need to be based on objectivity not subjectivity.

Silly sod. In boxing, "facts" are often bullshit.

Things that supposedly happened looking at the paper results, did not actually happen. You read too much into official verdicts rather that the way things really were. It's like reading history off of a census registrar.

JT is perfectly right to argue the way he does IMO.

[JT Rock]

Newsflash dude, PFP is not based on any other thing except opinion..

I also stated JMM beating Casamayor was just as good maybe even better that Pac/DLH. Marquez moved up in weight to beat THE RING champion at 135(Casamayor) who had a resume comparably to Delahoya's!!!!

Casamayor was fighting at that weight comfortably for years and is active compared to a part time shell of a fighter who hadnt fought 147 for a friggin decade... Why cant you get that through your head?? name me a fighter who dropped down in weight after 10 years and was successful beating a guy 5 years younger in his prime considered #1 in the world... Oscar's only chance would have been to cut to 147, rehydrate to 160... There isint an fan or expert in the world that didnt see that as the winning equation....

Pac was bigger than Delahoya, Pac had rehydrated to 147 plenty before when he fought at 130.... So why is that such a monumental achievement beating a guy you who you were faster, stronger, bigger, younger in your prime, out of his prime Explain Bilbo please!!!! I dont care about that 6 division champion crap all irrelevant, I care for the here and now, what happened in December because thats what matters....

By that logic of the past, than JMM is even better, because he beat Casamayor who beat Campbell and Campbell beat Diaz... So JMM has wins over both Diaz and Casamayor, by KO to boot

As far as the Diaz's go Jmm's victory over a prime young A rated fighter in Juan is more impressive than Pac's handpicked mediocre win over David Diaz...

[HattonTheHammer]

I should add here that imo it's emotion that is causing people to react like this.

MArquez was getting overwhelmed in the early rounds by Diaz and so it made his comeback and subsuequent destruction of Diaz that much sweeter, it also happened to be a hugely competitive and exciting fight.

Pacquaio on the other hand completely outclassed and dominated Oscar from the very first bell so people are less impressed and just conclude that Oscar was weight drained and shot.

That's not fair imo, what more could Manny have done? He totally owned Oscar, beat him down and made him quit on his stool, there's simply nothing more he could have done to win more impressively hence how in the world can he drop DOWN from number one in the world?

Im also of the opinion that pacquiao deserves to be ranked number 1 not on who is the better fighter as even after 2 fights the jury is well out on that, but what pacman has acheived in the sport.

But marquez did to a very very good fighter what no man has got anywhere near to doing yet and though naturally being a hatton fan i hate when people claim (insert name) beat certain fighters because they were shot (in rickys case castillo, tszyu) de-la hoya was a shadow of the man that dominated at 147 a decade or so back and only put on 2pounds between the weigh in and the fight which pretty much suggests something was very wrong.

[:::PSL:::]

I'm sorry Bilbo but I dont agree with your logic... JMM is a 35 year old fighter with 16 years experience and many of wars, he just absolutely crushed in brutal fashion a peak prime 135 pound relentless pressure fighting whirlwind who 3 fights ago was considered toast of the division even though Casamayor got a XMAS present against Santa Cruz...

a year ago 99% considered Diaz the Champ of the division, Marquez beat him at his own game knocked him down 2x and sparked him out cold... Diaz has never been stopped before.

Against Casamoyar a 1st ballot Hall Of Famer and can argue his resume is as good as Delahoya's in terms of who he's fought and beat... JMM stopped him, 1st man ever to do that too...

So JMM moves up in weight like Pac, Beats the ring #1 champ, Pac fought a pathetic title holder, Pac fights a zombie version of Delahoya, JMM beats the former #1-2 fighter at 135 in Diaz.

The proof is in the puddind

JMM is the real McCoy, no doubt about it#1 unless Pac can beat Hatton, if not JMM stays #1

I completely agree that JMM is the real McCoy he is an awesome fighter no doubt, but you can't put him at number 1 in the p4p rankings off the back of that win in place of the guy who holds a win over him just a couple fights ago.

And everything you said about Diaz applies pretty much to De La Hoya. Oscar had never been beaten up, only stopped once bymiddleweight king B Hop and had just lost a split decision to the p4p's best.

Marquez knocked Diaz out but he wasn't the first to beat him, Nate Campbell dominated Juan Diaz from the first bell and beat him far easier than Marquez did.

Unless you believe Nate is a top 10 p4p fighter your argument holds no logic to me.

Yes Marquez is great, yes he's unquestionably number 2 in the world but he can't leapfrog a man who beat him a year ago and then leapt not one, not two, but three weight classes and dominated and destroyed a living legend in De La Hoya.

Imo you are only detracting from Marquez's brilliant acomplishments by trying to make claims that cannot be backed up.

Marquez lost to Pacquaio in an extremely close fight hence he cannot be p4p number 1 in the world until he either avenges that defeat or Manny loses.

That's just the way boxing works. Manny defeated a fighter in Oscar that no boxing expert in the world expected him to do, whilst Marquez won a fight with Juan Diaz in which he was the slight favourite going in anyway seeing as Diaz had already been completely manhandled by a 36 veteran only two fights before.

If Manny loses to Hatton I'd have no problem putting Marquez as number 1 in the world but until then Manny is still the man.

Bilbo pretty much summed it all up on why MP should remain as #1 p4p.

But JT Rock,

Are saying Hatton is just a mediocre B-level fighter and Pacquiao won't gain anything by beating him?

[killersheep]

I'm sorry Bilbo but I dont agree with your logic... JMM is a 35 year old fighter with 16 years experience and many of wars, he just absolutely crushed in brutal fashion a peak prime 135 pound relentless pressure fighting whirlwind who 3 fights ago was considered toast of the division even though Casamayor got a XMAS present against Santa Cruz...

a year ago 99% considered Diaz the Champ of the division, Marquez beat him at his own game knocked him down 2x and sparked him out cold... Diaz has never been stopped before.

Against Casamoyar a 1st ballot Hall Of Famer and can argue his resume is as good as Delahoya's in terms of who he's fought and beat... JMM stopped him, 1st man ever to do that too...

So JMM moves up in weight like Pac, Beats the ring #1 champ, Pac fought a pathetic title holder, Pac fights a zombie version of Delahoya, JMM beats the former #1-2 fighter at 135 in Diaz.

The proof is in the puddind

JMM is the real McCoy, no doubt about it#1 unless Pac can beat Hatton, if not JMM stays #1

I completely agree that JMM is the real McCoy he is an awesome fighter no doubt, but you can't put him at number 1 in the p4p rankings off the back of that win in place of the guy who holds a win over him just a couple fights ago.

And everything you said about Diaz applies pretty much to De La Hoya. Oscar had never been beaten up, only stopped once bymiddleweight king B Hop and had just lost a split decision to the p4p's best.

Marquez knocked Diaz out but he wasn't the first to beat him, Nate Campbell dominated Juan Diaz from the first bell and beat him far easier than Marquez did.

Unless you believe Nate is a top 10 p4p fighter your argument holds no logic to me.

Yes Marquez is great, yes he's unquestionably number 2 in the world but he can't leapfrog a man who beat him a year ago and then leapt not one, not two, but three weight classes and dominated and destroyed a living legend in De La Hoya.

Imo you are only detracting from Marquez's brilliant acomplishments by trying to make claims that cannot be backed up.

Marquez lost to Pacquaio in an extremely close fight hence he cannot be p4p number 1 in the world until he either avenges that defeat or Manny loses.

That's just the way boxing works. Manny defeated a fighter in Oscar that no boxing expert in the world expected him to do, whilst Marquez won a fight with Juan Diaz in which he was the slight favourite going in anyway seeing as Diaz had already been completely manhandled by a 36 veteran only two fights before.

If Manny loses to Hatton I'd have no problem putting Marquez as number 1 in the world but until then Manny is still the man.

Bilbo pretty much summed it all up on why MP should remain as #1 p4p.

But JT Rock,

Are saying Hatton is just a mediocre B-level fighter and Pacquiao won't gain anything by beating him?

Not to speak for you JT, so correct me if I'm wrong, but............

Jt is saying JMM is #1, and if PAC beats Hatton, PAC becomes #1 again.

[killersheep]

Jesus just rewatched Marquez/Diaz absolutely amazing fight
Compubox says

Marquez - total punches 288/732 39% - power punches 190/401 47%
Diaz - total punches 252/781 32% - power punches 161/500 32%

FOTY no doubt

[JT Rock]

I completely agree that JMM is the real McCoy he is an awesome fighter no doubt, but you can't put him at number 1 in the p4p rankings off the back of that win in place of the guy who holds a win over him just a couple fights ago.

And everything you said about Diaz applies pretty much to De La Hoya. Oscar had never been beaten up, only stopped once bymiddleweight king B Hop and had just lost a split decision to the p4p's best.

Marquez knocked Diaz out but he wasn't the first to beat him, Nate Campbell dominated Juan Diaz from the first bell and beat him far easier than Marquez did.

Unless you believe Nate is a top 10 p4p fighter your argument holds no logic to me.

Yes Marquez is great, yes he's unquestionably number 2 in the world but he can't leapfrog a man who beat him a year ago and then leapt not one, not two, but three weight classes and dominated and destroyed a living legend in De La Hoya.

Imo you are only detracting from Marquez's brilliant acomplishments by trying to make claims that cannot be backed up.

Marquez lost to Pacquaio in an extremely close fight hence he cannot be p4p number 1 in the world until he either avenges that defeat or Manny loses.

That's just the way boxing works. Manny defeated a fighter in Oscar that no boxing expert in the world expected him to do, whilst Marquez won a fight with Juan Diaz in which he was the slight favourite going in anyway seeing as Diaz had already been completely manhandled by a 36 veteran only two fights before.

If Manny loses to Hatton I'd have no problem putting Marquez as number 1 in the world but until then Manny is still the man.

Bilbo pretty much summed it all up on why MP should remain as #1 p4p.

But JT Rock,

Are saying Hatton is just a mediocre B-level fighter and Pacquiao won't gain anything by beating him?

Not to speak for you JT, so correct me if I'm wrong, but............

Jt is saying JMM is #1, and if PAC beats Hatton, PAC becomes #1 again.

Greg is right.... I think Pac would be #1 again if he beats Hatton, hence the title... As it sits right here today JMM is #1 Boxer in the world. If Pac beats Hatton then Pac deserves to be #1 again.

I wouldnt be suprised if Mayweather toys with the Idea of Fighting JMM, especially if Hatton beats Pac, since Floyd had already been there and done that with Hatton.

[Kev]

Bilbo pretty much summed it all up on why MP should remain as #1 p4p.

But JT Rock,

Are saying Hatton is just a mediocre B-level fighter and Pacquiao won't gain anything by beating him?

Not to speak for you JT, so correct me if I'm wrong, but............

Jt is saying JMM is #1, and if PAC beats Hatton, PAC becomes #1 again.

Greg is right.... I think Pac would be #1 again if he beats Hatton, hence the title... As it sits right here today JMM is #1 Boxer in the world. If Pac beats Hatton then Pac deserves to be #1 again.

I wouldnt be suprised if Mayweather toys with the Idea of Fighting JMM, especially if Hatton beats Pac, since Floyd had already been there and done that with Hatton.

So if we assume by your logic that Pacquiao was number 1 prior to the Juan Diaz fight how can a win over a fighter who was not even in the top 10 p4p and who was dominated by a 36 year old veteran who was considered a journeyman at the time jump Marquez to number 1 now?

Because he came from behind? Because it was a knockout? Because it was exciting?

If he'd have won easily and dominated from the first bell would you just be saying it was clear that Diaz was broken by Campbell and now shot?