Capitalism

[VictorCharlie]

Kirk you continually circle the same crap. I have never said that we should have invaded Iraq, endorsed the plan to invade nor the administrating of Iraq post invasion. Why you keep re-hashing them is beyond me. Your allusions to Vietnam are not supporting your argument at all. It in fact is never the foreign military that ultimately defeats insurgents but the indigineous gov't/people. So mirroring Iraq and Vietnam show exactly that winning battles (ie MILITARY SUCCESS) do not equate to defeating an insurgency. And yes much like I already stated taking and holding terriroty as well as body count are irrelevant to winning against an indigineous insurgency. It is almost comical that you are simply regurgitating my own thread back at me yet attempting to use it as a counter argument. I am not explaining away any failure nor am I under allusions of how history will treat it, but considering that I've walked the streets of Baghdad and met above mentioned insurgent in combat and soundly whipped his ass time and time again I think I can pretty safely say in the pure aspect of combat the military has been tremendous. Lethal force aside the tremendous work myself and thousands of other soldiers have done to improve housing, schools, roads, markets, water supply, power supply, business grants, medical facilities etc is immeasurable. The ony shining star in this whole shit sandwich has been the American militaries boots on the ground and you sir do those men and women a great disservice and disrespect to suggest otherwise. Considering we never should have invaded in the first place...at the moment the end state is going to be an Iraqi country whose people will ultimately decide its fate...regardless of the initial intentions of the invasion this is the only way it should be.

Now lets talk about the Son's of Iraq. Firstly as I have stated and you have re stated body count doesn't = winning. We were never going to diminish AQI through attrition. For gods sake they strap bombs to down syndrom teenage girls and march them into markets. In classic counter insurgency doctrine you have to force a wedge between the insurgent and the populace where you deny sanctuary to the insurgent and fear from the populace. Although I hate admiting it the Marines in Anbar were much better at this early on than the Army. Through living in the Sunni neighborhoods, forming relationships and viciously hunting combatants it forced this wedge. The Sunnis also needed the reconcilliation. By abstaining from elections they had marginalized themselves politically. Having their own security forces to secure their neighborhoods was a pretty good deal. I don't understand how you can't see the Sunni tribes deciding to work with the US as a perfect example of counter insurgency working. The insurgent was denied sanctuary, seperated from the populace and decided to get a safer job.

Much of the AQI violence was in fact not nor is it now directed at coalition forces but at Shia communities. Sectarian violence is not something that anyone but the Iraqi people can solve. I don't know if it will ever totally end. It is a horrible truth but not a problem to be laid at the feet of anyone but its respective parties.

[Andre]

I dont blame the people within the military for anythng really; but I do think they are hoodwinked to a degree by the Government and the Cia too.
Like the innocent kids from all the battalions that serve in Guantanimo Bay they are doing the job and doing it right. I doubt there is physical torture there.Its a dumping ground, the end of the line after all.
How a small few of those prisoners got there and what happened to them for the months prior to getting them there,is another Cia and(anti Geneva convention matter).
Wonder where they will place the 200 that they cant release who deserve to be in there when this new President gets his way and it closes down within the year?

Special services arent hoodwinked into anything though they actually go through a very bad night or two of degrading mental and physical torture in order to just get into the regiment and thats after they've been run into ground and think theyre home safe.Then the real work begins.Tough boys and girls.

Say a Prayer for all those on the ground this Easter who ever they are.
I think the Muslim extremists will be hunting them on double time during our Christian break.

[Kirkland Laing]

Kirk you continually circle the same crap. I have never said that we should have invaded Iraq, endorsed the plan to invade nor the administrating of Iraq post invasion. Why you keep re-hashing them is beyond me. Your allusions to Vietnam are not supporting your argument at all. It in fact is never the foreign military that ultimately defeats insurgents but the indigineous gov't/people. So mirroring Iraq and Vietnam show exactly that winning battles (ie MILITARY SUCCESS) do not equate to defeating an insurgency. And yes much like I already stated taking and holding terriroty as well as body count are irrelevant to winning against an indigineous insurgency. It is almost comical that you are simply regurgitating my own thread back at me yet attempting to use it as a counter argument. I am not explaining away any failure nor am I under allusions of how history will treat it, but considering that I've walked the streets of Baghdad and met above mentioned insurgent in combat and soundly whipped his ass time and time again I think I can pretty safely say in the pure aspect of combat the military has been tremendous. Lethal force aside the tremendous work myself and thousands of other soldiers have done to improve housing, schools, roads, markets, water supply, power supply, business grants, medical facilities etc is immeasurable. The ony shining star in this whole shit sandwich has been the American militaries boots on the ground and you sir do those men and women a great disservice and disrespect to suggest otherwise. Considering we never should have invaded in the first place...at the moment the end state is going to be an Iraqi country whose people will ultimately decide its fate...regardless of the initial intentions of the invasion this is the only way it should be.

Now lets talk about the Son's of Iraq. Firstly as I have stated and you have re stated body count doesn't = winning. We were never going to diminish AQI through attrition. For gods sake they strap bombs to down syndrom teenage girls and march them into markets. In classic counter insurgency doctrine you have to force a wedge between the insurgent and the populace where you deny sanctuary to the insurgent and fear from the populace. Although I hate admiting it the Marines in Anbar were much better at this early on than the Army. Through living in the Sunni neighborhoods, forming relationships and viciously hunting combatants it forced this wedge. The Sunnis also needed the reconcilliation. By abstaining from elections they had marginalized themselves politically. Having their own security forces to secure their neighborhoods was a pretty good deal. I don't understand how you can't see the Sunni tribes deciding to work with the US as a perfect example of counter insurgency working. The insurgent was denied sanctuary, seperated from the populace and decided to get a safer job.

Much of the AQI violence was in fact not nor is it now directed at coalition forces but at Shia communities. Sectarian violence is not something that anyone but the Iraqi people can solve. I don't know if it will ever totally end. It is a horrible truth but not a problem to be laid at the feet of anyone but its respective parties.

So we both agree that Iraq showed the limits of the US military. Excellent.

[VictorCharlie]

Sarcasm aside, if what you meant to say was Iraq has confirmed what experts have known for years that there is no singular military solution to defeating an indigineous asymmetric insurgency then yes we agree.

[El Kabong]

So we both agree that Iraq showed the limits of the US military. Excellent.

It's kind of hard to be the "good guys" and play by the "rules" when the other guys don't have to....it's easier just to go around and blow shit up at random than to try and prevent such actions and still provide people the freedom to live their everyday lives.

[Kirkland Laing]

So we both agree that Iraq showed the limits of the US military. Excellent.

it's easier just to go around and blow shit up at random than to try and prevent such actions and still provide people the freedom to live their everyday lives.

An excellent critique of the last eight years of US foreign policy. Well done Lyle.

[Andre]

So we both agree that Iraq showed the limits of the US military. Excellent.

it's easier just to go around and blow shit up at random than to try and prevent such actions and still provide people the freedom to live their everyday lives.

An excellent critique of the last eight years of US foreign policy. Well done Lyle.

Fuck You two feeling ok today?

[Kirkland Laing]

it's easier just to go around and blow shit up at random than to try and prevent such actions and still provide people the freedom to live their everyday lives.

An excellent critique of the last eight years of US foreign policy. Well done Lyle.

Fuck You two feeling ok today?

Yes, I'm taking the mickey out of blow-shit-up US foreign policy and specifically the eight-year-long relentless shower of shit that the Bush administration just produced.

[Andre]

Yes I know; But ,but you agreed with Lyle !

You need to have a rest mate, go have a lie down for a while.