The Thrilla in Manilla Documentary

[RozzySean]

I think its ignorant for people to watch the documentary and then say they hate Ali as a person.

Ali has already apologized and said he was hyping a fight, he holds no remorse towards Frazier and even apologized to his son. Frazier to this day is proud of what he has done to Ali and won't let it go nor be forgiving. How someone can praise Frazier for that and yet hate Ali for manning up and apologizing and saying he was wrong is beyond my understanding. Frazier even has it on his ring tone what he has done to Ali, yet people praise him and put Ali all in the wrong here? It was 30 years ago, and Ali has since apologized a long time ago, Frazier still holds onto it and is happy about what he did. How can you defend a man that says Ali "deserved to be thrown into the fire" at the Olympics?

And how can you throw out the 60 million he put into a Center that focuses on peace respect and responsibility in Louisville, thats also a non profit organization. Just throw out, throw out his humanitarian efforts through his global travels since his retirement, and throw out the 20 million plus meals he's provided for the hungry more then 200 days a year, throw out all the great things he's done since his retirement becoming a greater person then some people could wish to be, just throw all that out because of him hyping the fight with Joe Frazier which he apologized for, fuck any fan that says he hates Ali as a person. And thats from the bottom of my heart, and it may seem harsh but fuck whoever judges Ali as a person because of his actions in that one part of his life which he has apologized for. Keep praising Frazier for holding onto it and not accepting apologies and putting his love for what he's done to Ali in his ringtone almost 30 years later and praise him for nearly making Ali cry when at a personal appearance Joe got on a speaker saying "I guess we know who won those fights now don't we."

I don't get where people come from so times or how fast boxing fans can switch sides because of a documentary while ignoring all the things someone has done in their life since. Fuck any boxing fan who turns their back on Ali all because of one documentary thats not even relevant to what he is doing now.

You have a point that at some point, it's time to grow up and forgive. I think a lot of why Frazier won't let it go is because he was so supportive of Ali when the chips were down for him, and then he turned on him. Combine this with the Ali's legacy and the fact the he was never held accountable by the public for being so horrible, it's a bitter pill to swallow. Ali should have apologized to Frazier man to man.

Like any other person, Ali did things that were both positive and negative. Ali certainly did many positive things with this fame and fortune. If not for those things, he would be remembered very differently. But there is no denying that for most of his career, Ali was an egotistical, hypocritical, self serving jerk. And there's no denying Frazier got the short end of the stick.

[Majesty]

You have a point that at some point, it's time to grow up and forgive. I think a lot of why Frazier won't let it go is because he was so supportive of Ali when the chips were down for him, and then he turned on him. Combine this with the Ali's legacy and the fact the he was never held accountable by the public for being so horrible, it's a bitter pill to swallow. Ali should have apologized to Frazier man to man.

Like any other person, Ali did things that were both positive and negative. Ali certainly did many positive things with this fame and fortune. If not for those things, he would be remembered very differently. But there is no denying that for most of his career, Ali was an egotistical, hypocritical, self serving jerk. And there's no denying Frazier got the short end of the stick.

In boxing hype always gets out of control, I don't see anyone saying Larry Holmes is a bad guy for playing the race card in the Gerry Cooney fight and turning it into something huge in which Jesse Jackson actually HAD to interfere.

One thing about Ali that everyone knew is that he hyped every fight the same way he talked a lot of trash during the hype, did a lot of egotistical things before and during it, but Bert Sugar said it best when he said that Ali did it in a playful way and always showed respect afterwards, I believe he said it when he was comparing the way Floyd Mayweather talked trash and the way Ali did.

Ali is looked at as the greatest for more then just his boxing career but what he has done afterwards. It's not like Ali gets the credit for being the greatest for nothing, Ali went and did something positive in his life and in attempts to help make others lives better. Ali got his reputation as the greatest for what he has done after boxing and all the effort he put into helping others. So to say Joe got the short end of the stick is bullshit in my opinion, because its not like Ali retired, did nothing, and got the credit. Know what I mean?

And let's not forget that Ali WAS held horrible in the account of the public for his antics and got death threats and things as well, and you can bet your ass Joe Frazier wasn't the only person who suffered.

My whole thing is, it's not always what someone does, but what they do after.

After all was said and done, Ali called Frazier great, gave him the credit he deserved, and apologized for all he has done. And even to this day has tried to reconcile with Frazier and Joe decides not to, to this day.

People want to say that Ali is an egotistical hypocrite and such, but then they go and ignore that on the first documentary of these two(on the first fight) Frazier said near the end of it that he has swallowed many razor blades in his career and that they cut inside and that if he has said anything thats hurt Ali he just wanted to say, hey man, he was sorry.

And then he turns around in this documentary and completely goes back on that. Why is no one talking about that? Why is everyone ONLY talking about what Ali's done? Thats as unfair as people are saying Ali gets the treatment as the greatest, in my opinion.

But like i said, I try to look at how people end these feuds, Ali has gone on to do great things as a person and in the community and tried to reconcile with Frazier, Frazier still chooses not to. And that's not Ali's fault. You cannot fault a man for trying and Ali has tried time and time again to make things right with Frazier who keeps refusing. If Ali had done nothing and just went "screw frazier i beat him i don't care" then I understand people saying they don't respect him. But Ali has apologized to his son, apologized, and tried to this day to make things right with Frazier who still refuses. So how can Joe say "why didn't he come to me and apologize" when to this day Ali has tried and Frazier doesn't accept it. How can you blame Ali for trying?

[JazMerkin]

There are some very fucked up things that Ali said to Frazier, and they do make you angry, but people trying to paint Ali as some middle-class knob who had it all at the time ignores the realities of pre-civil rights America and is clearly either a tool or a prick. Some of the stuff Ali said, particularly the gorilla thing went too far, and he has more than readily admitted that how he treated Frazier was disgraceful & ranks with his treatment of Malcolm X after his ex-communication as the most shameful moments of his life. Frazier in no way deserved the treatment he got before his fights with Ali, however, the pleasure he takes in Ali having Parkinsons is disgusting, and when even his own family believe he has to let it go & stop with the hate then maybe there's something to it. Frazier has no problem 'making up' with Ali every time there's a money opportunity for him, then going back to spewing abuse. You can't call on Ali without then doing the same to Frazier. As for the documentary, it is typical of all documentaries (I've made some so I know) the filmaker only shows you what he wants to, they only use Ferdie Pacheco (who I've long thought of as a media-hungry moron) from the 'Ali side'. It is only at the end that it hints at anything that might not show Frazier in a favourable light, and even then it isn't as forceful with it as it is when showing Ali as a bastard. The pair of them both have things they should be proud & ashamed of in their lives, as we all do.

[Majesty]

There are some very fucked up things that Ali said to Frazier, and they do make you angry, but people trying to paint Ali as some middle-class knob who had it all at the time ignores the realities of pre-civil rights America and is clearly either a tool or a prick. Some of the stuff Ali said, particularly the gorilla thing went too far, and he has more than readily admitted that how he treated Frazier was disgraceful & ranks with his treatment of Malcolm X after his ex-communication as the most shameful moments of his life. Frazier in no way deserved the treatment he got before his fights with Ali, however, the pleasure he takes in Ali having Parkinsons is disgusting, and when even his own family believe he has to let it go & stop with the hate then maybe there's something to it. Frazier has no problem 'making up' with Ali every time there's a money opportunity for him, then going back to spewing abuse. You can't call on Ali without then doing the same to Frazier. As for the documentary, it is typical of all documentaries (I've made some so I know) the filmaker only shows you what he wants to, they only use Ferdie Pacheco (who I've long thought of as a media-hungry moron) from the 'Ali side'. It is only at the end that it hints at anything that might not show Frazier in a favourable light, and even then it isn't as forceful with it as it is when showing Ali as a bastard. The pair of them both have things they should be proud & ashamed of in their lives, as we all do.

Rep coming your way, agree 100 percent

[Lance Uppercut]

I though it was an excellent documentary. For so long Ali has been the darling of the media, and it is refreshing to see a film that is critical of him.

[Gandalf]

I though it was an excellent documentary. For so long Ali has been the darling of the media, and it is refreshing to see a film that is critical of him.

Not seen it yet, but am well aware of Ali and his faults. Glad to hear that there is a little more openness occurring about what Ali was like instead of all the mollycoddling we get far too often.

[VictorCharlie]

I tend to agree with Majesty on this one. There is no excusing Ali's actions in regards to Frazier, but he has come out and apologized as well doing some great things internationally. I don't hold it against Frazier for his bitterness but its hard to back the guy when he seems to take a certain amount of pride in having a part in Ali's health.

[Rican]

The documentary was great. In terms of Ali, yeah what he did to Frazier verbally was fucked up. But we must analyze Ali within the context of the 60's/early 70's and not under the context of today. That era was one that was racially charged and Ali was under the influence of the nation of Islam and in my opinion, brainwashed (even Malcolm X began to see the hypocrisy of the movement and drifted away from it before he was assassinated). Ali was part promoter/part fool/and part brainwashed socially, basically playing to the racial undertones to sell the fight. If you noticed, the Philipino crowd booed him when he was introduced as opposed to the crowd in the Rumble in the Jungle, where Ali was an icon. But really, what I focused on was those three fights and how they both mustered the strength to fight 14 rounds in the last fight. That was totally amazing.

[Mr140]

Look i like Ali but what the man did was clearly wrong and i not a man to hold a grudge on someone but i have never had that happen to me. For the love of god calling Frasier a uncle tom a man who grow up picking cotton and having his own race turning on him is alot dude. I mean going to his house with a gun when his kids are there and calling him a gorilla ever chance he got i mean shit theres a line were people wont forgive. And it is probably a line Ali crossed with Fraizer and people saying its bad about him taking pleasure in what he did Ali yet again i dont like what happen to Ali. But he never called me a gorrila and made my life hell so if Fraizer takes pleasure in Ali being a cripple because he fucked him over his whole life well i guess i could understand his view on it i guess. People saying he was humbled after his career it might of been because what happen to Ali because i am sure parkensons can humble a mans ego.

[Gandalf]

Ali was a great boxer, I have enjoyed watching many of his fights. But outside of the ring, he has little merit in my eyes. The guy was a dick, and we can all defend him and say it's about selling tickets or being brainwashed. But at the end of the day, being a dick is being a dick. And Ali was often a dick.

I cannot get any more philosophical than that. I disagree with a lot of Ali's views about race, religion and women. For a man with such a quick tongue, his actual thinking processes never could keep up so well.

Yes, it's sad how Ali is today. I have sympathy for that. And I don't agree with Fraziers comments, but I can see where his comments come from. Ali seems to be revered for more than his boxing which is something I don't really adhere to nor understand so well. I respect the boxing only, it was exceptional, but I was never too keen on what came out of his mouth.

[Rican]

Ali was a great boxer, I have enjoyed watching many of his fights. But outside of the ring, he has little merit in my eyes. The guy was a dick, and we can all defend him and say it's about selling tickets or being brainwashed. But at the end of the day, being a dick is being a dick. And Ali was often a dick.

I cannot get any more philosophical than that. I disagree with a lot of Ali's views about race, religion and women. For a man with such a quick tongue, his actual thinking processes never could keep up so well.

Yes, it's sad how Ali is today. I have sympathy for that. And I don't agree with Fraziers comments, but I can see where his comments come from. Ali seems to be revered for more than his boxing which is something I don't really adhere to nor understand so well. I respect the boxing only, it was exceptional, but I was never too keen on what came out of his mouth.

I am definitely not defending Ali. I am simply implying that he did not mature intellectually as someone like Malcolm X did.

[generalbulldog]

Sorry to bring up this topic but the thread isn't too old. For Ali,almost every documentary I've seen on the man has been positive and paints him in a positive light.

Now you have an documentary that tells the story in Frazier's eyes it's bias. So you're telling me that 99.99 percent of the documentaries on ALi isn't? Hell I thought I knew everything about Ali, but I ddin't know he participated as a speaker in KKK rallies.

And allso I thought it was sickening that Frazier's kids were harrassed and bullied because of what ALi said about their dad. Pretty disgusting that Frazier's kids had to go through bullshit like that.

Muhammad Ali reminds me a lot of Michael Jackson. People are just so enamored with the guy's talent that they can forgive whatever messed up things they did in their life. It's like they can't separate the man's character from his job. Just because you are good at doing something doesn't mean you are also an good person.

With friends like Ali who needs enemies?

[ICB]

Great thread this alot of great discussions, although didn't understand all of it

Just one thing i'd like to point out Larry Holmes. Would always beat Muhammad Ali case closed

[ElTerribleMorales]

This just took away any respect I had left 4 clay,when I was younger and 1st started boxing I would watch the old tapes and he was my hero I would go 2 the gym and try 2 copy everything he did,I tried 2 be loud like him,everything,but over the years once I looked past the mystique and I've read prolly every clay book,including his auto biography,he was simply a racist,I read a book jose torres wrote about him where torres attended a speech clay was giving at a retarded nation of islam sermon and the things clay said about white people were disgusting. No excuse wat so ever 4 the things he said,the way he talked 2 joe and then the glory he received for it,the great martin luther king died 4 his dream that one day children of all colors would play together,and clay goes out and preaches that different colors should be segregated!!!!!!! I use 2 dream of meeting clay(doesn't deserved 2 be called ali) and shaking his hand and taking a picture with him,but if I seen him now I wouldn't even shake his hand,imo opinion as a fighter,he was one of the greatest ever,but as a person he was a disgrace

first off, arent' you a hypocrite, you rant on about Ali being a racist and yet you go on to disrespect the muslim religion, just cause you don't agree with it you don't have to go and insult the religion, and before you try and go after me, no i'm not muslim, and he had plenty of reason for saying the things he would about race, hell when you see your people getting sprayed down with high powered water hoses, have attack dogs set loose on you, beaten down with sticks, and even murdered on the streets, by the way that was just what the police would be doing, not counting acts by the KKK, you'd tend to be a bit bitter and make your feelings be known, and let your people know you shouldn't have to still be taking it, especially after the whole bullshit of the draft, who the fuck has the right to try and obligate you to do something like join the military if you do not share the same views as them, hell that even takes away a bit from the people who willingly fought or died for their country, cause they actually died for what they believed in, not an ideal that was forced upon them, Ali did take the taunts and all the things he said to Joe way too far, and it seriously effected him, but he's gone out of his way various times to make ammends with Frazier, you can't say that Ali is a disgrace in anything aside from maybe being a husband, he's done humanitarian work even while beaten down by Parkinsons disease. It's easy to judge, but nothing to do with his boxing career, i'd like to see you do half of what he's done for people's rights

[JazMerkin]

Dammit, that was supposed to be neg reps for BOXING GOD, I agree with everything ElTerrible says.

If he doesn't want to be called Clay, don't call him that. You obviously lack any understanding of the state of race relations at that time to make the comments you do. Also sometime in the late 70s, Ali renounced his previous views and if he hated white people so much, why was it some of his closest friends were white. Ignore the rhetoric of the Nation at that time, and look at what he actually says now.