Wlad Vs Other Careful Fighters

[Kev]

I will compare Wlad to whoever I want. Floyd, Roy, and Bernard had every physical advantage you could have over an opponent (especially Floyd and Roy), they were some of the most physically gifted fighters (to me roy is the most physically gifted fighter ever) yet hold back because they dont want to LOSE. AND they didnt always fight the best in their division. 7.

is there any "best" of the heavyweight division at this point? You act like the Ring Rankings at heavyweight mean anything.

And Floyd imposes his will on people he is bigger that or feels he can. Ask Phillip Ndou DeMarcus Corely and Arturo Gatti how passive Mayweather is and Mayweather isn't a one shot KO guy either. Roy Jones Jr imposed his will differently on the fighter he had greater advantages over. And Roy was a small light heavyweight and Hopkins was a come forward fighter early in his career and then he was a boxer puncher later on, watch his fight with Antawn Echols the rematch where he dislocated his arm. Hopkins style only became defensive when he was hitting the ages of 38, 39, 40 which is understandable.

You cannot compare them to Wladimer. Neither of them were 6'6 and have a near 10 inch reach advantage over everyone else they fought. Hopkins was rarely taller of "bigger" then anyone he fought and the same goes for Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather.

Wladimer outweights everyone he fights by almost 30 pounds average has over 4 inches in height on them and has almost a 10 inch reach advantage on them.

He has no excuse.

And donm't bash Roy for not fighting the best in his division and then say what WLad does means anymore. Basically the Heavyweight division isn't about fighting the best its about fighting who is the most popular. When everyone in the division is 6'1 or 6'3 and 220 pounds and you are 6'6 and 250 pounds is it really fighting the best? Like I said, Wladimer is the best at heavyweight but that doesn't mean anything at this point he has no one to challenge him because of his height, weight and physical gifts. He is a big fish in a small pond. Nothing more, nothing less. Roy and Floyd both moved up in divisions to win their titles and get their achievements, they didn't sit still at one weight class and give performances of jabs for 12 rounds just because they could. If Roy wanted to do that he'd have just stayed his whole career at middle or super middleweight and Floyd would have stayed at super featherweight.

Wiadimer has no excuse for his sub par performances. Tell me one thing he has to be worried about? He has youth on his side. Speed on his side. Power on his side. Height on his side. Reach on his side. Why is he fighting passively?

Why does he need an excuse though? He's the universally recognised heavyweight champion of the world, he makes millions and has a massive massive fanbase in Europe, Germany and the Ukraine especially.

As long as he keeps winning, doesn't get hurt and keeps his health what more does he want?

The onus isn't on him to change its on his opposition to work out an effective gameplan and beat him.

Why moan at Wlad for winning, and not Chagaev, Rahman, Thompson, Ibragimov, Austin etc for not offering him any challenge?

[Majesty]

I will compare Wlad to whoever I want. Floyd, Roy, and Bernard had every physical advantage you could have over an opponent (especially Floyd and Roy), they were some of the most physically gifted fighters (to me roy is the most physically gifted fighter ever) yet hold back because they dont want to LOSE. AND they didnt always fight the best in their division. 7.

is there any "best" of the heavyweight division at this point? You act like the Ring Rankings at heavyweight mean anything.

And Floyd imposes his will on people he is bigger that or feels he can. Ask Phillip Ndou DeMarcus Corely and Arturo Gatti how passive Mayweather is and Mayweather isn't a one shot KO guy either. Roy Jones Jr imposed his will differently on the fighter he had greater advantages over. And Roy was a small light heavyweight and Hopkins was a come forward fighter early in his career and then he was a boxer puncher later on, watch his fight with Antawn Echols the rematch where he dislocated his arm. Hopkins style only became defensive when he was hitting the ages of 38, 39, 40 which is understandable.

You cannot compare them to Wladimer. Neither of them were 6'6 and have a near 10 inch reach advantage over everyone else they fought. Hopkins was rarely taller of "bigger" then anyone he fought and the same goes for Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather.

Wladimer outweights everyone he fights by almost 30 pounds average has over 4 inches in height on them and has almost a 10 inch reach advantage on them.

He has no excuse.

And donm't bash Roy for not fighting the best in his division and then say what WLad does means anymore. Basically the Heavyweight division isn't about fighting the best its about fighting who is the most popular. When everyone in the division is 6'1 or 6'3 and 220 pounds and you are 6'6 and 250 pounds is it really fighting the best? Like I said, Wladimer is the best at heavyweight but that doesn't mean anything at this point he has no one to challenge him because of his height, weight and physical gifts. He is a big fish in a small pond. Nothing more, nothing less. Roy and Floyd both moved up in divisions to win their titles and get their achievements, they didn't sit still at one weight class and give performances of jabs for 12 rounds just because they could. If Roy wanted to do that he'd have just stayed his whole career at middle or super middleweight and Floyd would have stayed at super featherweight.

Wiadimer has no excuse for his sub par performances. Tell me one thing he has to be worried about? He has youth on his side. Speed on his side. Power on his side. Height on his side. Reach on his side. Why is he fighting passively?

Why does he need an excuse though? He's the universally recognised heavyweight champion of the world, he makes millions and has a massive massive fanbase in Europe, Germany and the Ukraine especially.

As long as he keeps winning, doesn't get hurt and keeps his health what more does he want?

The onus isn't on him to change its on his opposition to work out an effective gameplan and beat him.

Why moan at Wlad for winning, and not Chagaev, Rahman, Thompson, Ibragimov, Austin etc for not offering him any challenge?

Because there is no challenge in the heavyweight division. Look at the list of names.

I don't bash Wladimer for winning I bash him for winning the way he does against people he has every advantage over and should be knocking out.

How did Rahman last even as long as he did against him? Rahman has been done for the last 5 years. And how did Rahman, or Thompson or Austin even get a shot at Wladimer?

Like I said its a division where its not about fighting the best its about fighting the most popular and right now no one at heavyweight is popular. The guy that gets the most press up there is someone who is a Cruiserweight(David Haye) and Arreola who obviously isn't ready for the step up at this point. Even when Mike Tyson had a weak heavyweight division he steamrolled through them all because he could. Wladimer for all intents and purposes should steamroll everyone he fights.

Why doesnt he?

[Kev]

is there any "best" of the heavyweight division at this point? You act like the Ring Rankings at heavyweight mean anything.

And Floyd imposes his will on people he is bigger that or feels he can. Ask Phillip Ndou DeMarcus Corely and Arturo Gatti how passive Mayweather is and Mayweather isn't a one shot KO guy either. Roy Jones Jr imposed his will differently on the fighter he had greater advantages over. And Roy was a small light heavyweight and Hopkins was a come forward fighter early in his career and then he was a boxer puncher later on, watch his fight with Antawn Echols the rematch where he dislocated his arm. Hopkins style only became defensive when he was hitting the ages of 38, 39, 40 which is understandable.

You cannot compare them to Wladimer. Neither of them were 6'6 and have a near 10 inch reach advantage over everyone else they fought. Hopkins was rarely taller of "bigger" then anyone he fought and the same goes for Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather.

Wladimer outweights everyone he fights by almost 30 pounds average has over 4 inches in height on them and has almost a 10 inch reach advantage on them.

He has no excuse.

And donm't bash Roy for not fighting the best in his division and then say what WLad does means anymore. Basically the Heavyweight division isn't about fighting the best its about fighting who is the most popular. When everyone in the division is 6'1 or 6'3 and 220 pounds and you are 6'6 and 250 pounds is it really fighting the best? Like I said, Wladimer is the best at heavyweight but that doesn't mean anything at this point he has no one to challenge him because of his height, weight and physical gifts. He is a big fish in a small pond. Nothing more, nothing less. Roy and Floyd both moved up in divisions to win their titles and get their achievements, they didn't sit still at one weight class and give performances of jabs for 12 rounds just because they could. If Roy wanted to do that he'd have just stayed his whole career at middle or super middleweight and Floyd would have stayed at super featherweight.

Wiadimer has no excuse for his sub par performances. Tell me one thing he has to be worried about? He has youth on his side. Speed on his side. Power on his side. Height on his side. Reach on his side. Why is he fighting passively?

Why does he need an excuse though? He's the universally recognised heavyweight champion of the world, he makes millions and has a massive massive fanbase in Europe, Germany and the Ukraine especially.

As long as he keeps winning, doesn't get hurt and keeps his health what more does he want?

The onus isn't on him to change its on his opposition to work out an effective gameplan and beat him.

Why moan at Wlad for winning, and not Chagaev, Rahman, Thompson, Ibragimov, Austin etc for not offering him any challenge?

Because there is no challenge in the heavyweight division. Look at the list of names.

I don't bash Wladimer for winning I bash him for winning the way he does against people he has every advantage over and should be knocking out.

How did Rahman last even as long as he did against him? Rahman has been done for the last 5 years. And how did Rahman, or Thompson or Austin even get a shot at Wladimer?

Like I said its a division where its not about fighting the best its about fighting the most popular and right now no one at heavyweight is popular. The guy that gets the most press up there is someone who is a Cruiserweight(David Haye) and Arreola who obviously isn't ready for the step up at this point. Even when Mike Tyson had a weak heavyweight division he steamrolled through them all because he could. Wladimer for all intents and purposes should steamroll everyone he fights.

Why doesnt he?

Rahman got a shot because he was last minute replacement, he wasn't who Klitschko was supposed to be fighting. Thompson totally deserved his shot, he had won an eliminator by travelling to Germany and knocking out Krusneqi. Austin was a shit opponent granted, but Ibragimov and Chagaev were the other world champs so what more do you expect they can't exactly fight better opposition when it doesn't exist.

Haye was seen as a big challenge but he pulled out not Wlads fault and he still fought the best possible alternative in Chagaev even though he has hepititis, personally I'd have avoided him on those grounds and brought in Oleg Maskaev.

As for Tyson destroying opponents well that was his style. I don't understand your apparent inconsistency here either. You long defended Cory Spinks against Larry Merchant when he ridiculed his performance against Jermain Taylor as you said Spinks was fighting a smart gameplan to his strengths and giving himself the best (perhaps only) chance of winning the fight.

Well several years ago Wlad was wild and destructive and did throw caution to the wind, with the result that he got sparked 3 times!

Now he's doing exactly what Cory Spinks does (at least before his legs went), box clever and minimise the risks. He has a dominating jab that he can effectively neutralize his opponents with so he makes use of it, and thus protects his chin.

You say he should use his physical advantages but isn't that EXACTLY what he is doing? He has the height and length to control his fights from a distance and not risk getting drawn into a brawl.

Tyson was the complete opposite, a small short armed ball of fire with lighting speed and reactions and devasting power. So he got inside with his head movement and fucked them up.

Wlad uses his physical assets to dominate from a distance. He's still stopping all of the guys he fights, only Ibragimov has gone the distance since Sam Peter and his style is clearly working for him so why in the world would he change it?

As I said before it's a puzzle for the other heavyweights to figure out. By all means you can root for him to lose and say he's boring but he's not going to change and risk losing to please you and nor should he.

[Majesty]

Why does he need an excuse though? He's the universally recognised heavyweight champion of the world, he makes millions and has a massive massive fanbase in Europe, Germany and the Ukraine especially.

As long as he keeps winning, doesn't get hurt and keeps his health what more does he want?

The onus isn't on him to change its on his opposition to work out an effective gameplan and beat him.

Why moan at Wlad for winning, and not Chagaev, Rahman, Thompson, Ibragimov, Austin etc for not offering him any challenge?

Because there is no challenge in the heavyweight division. Look at the list of names.

I don't bash Wladimer for winning I bash him for winning the way he does against people he has every advantage over and should be knocking out.

How did Rahman last even as long as he did against him? Rahman has been done for the last 5 years. And how did Rahman, or Thompson or Austin even get a shot at Wladimer?

Like I said its a division where its not about fighting the best its about fighting the most popular and right now no one at heavyweight is popular. The guy that gets the most press up there is someone who is a Cruiserweight(David Haye) and Arreola who obviously isn't ready for the step up at this point. Even when Mike Tyson had a weak heavyweight division he steamrolled through them all because he could. Wladimer for all intents and purposes should steamroll everyone he fights.

Why doesnt he?

Rahman got a shot because he was last minute replacement, he wasn't who Klitschko was supposed to be fighting. Thompson totally deserved his shot, he had won an eliminator by travelling to Germany and knocking out Krusneqi. Austin was a shit opponent granted, but Ibragimov and Chagaev were the other world champs so what more do you expect they can't exactly fight better opposition when it doesn't exist.

Haye was seen as a big challenge but he pulled out not Wlads fault and he still fought the best possible alternative in Chagaev even though he has hepititis, personally I'd have avoided him on those grounds and brought in Oleg Maskaev.

As for Tyson destroying opponents well that was his style. I don't understand your apparent inconsistency here either. You long defended Cory Spinks against Larry Merchant when he ridiculed his performance against Jermain Taylor as you said Spinks was fighting a smart gameplan to his strengths and giving himself the best (perhaps only) chance of winning the fight.

Well several years ago Wlad was wild and destructive and did throw caution to the wind, with the result that he got sparked 3 times!

Now he's doing exactly what Cory Spinks does (at least before his legs went), box clever and minimise the risks. He has a dominating jab that he can effectively neutralize his opponents with so he makes use of it, and thus protects his chin.

You say he should use his physical advantages but isn't that EXACTLY what he is doing? He has the height and length to control his fights from a distance and not risk getting drawn into a brawl.

Tyson was the complete opposite, a small short armed ball of fire with lighting speed and reactions and devasting power. So he got inside with his head movement and fucked them up.

Wlad uses his physical assets to dominate from a distance. He's still stopping all of the guys he fights, only Ibragimov has gone the distance since Sam Peter and his style is clearly working for him so why in the world would he change it?

As I said before it's a puzzle for the other heavyweights to figure out. By all means you can root for him to lose and say he's boring but he's not going to change and risk losing to please you and nor should he.

Throwing more punches at a distance and mixing up your shots hardly gives him a bigger chance of losing fights if anything it enhances his chances to win them. Like I said its not because he's that good he is just a big fish in the small pond of heavyweights if Lewis and Wladimer had fought back in their primes Lewis would have knocked him out because despite the fact Lewis was as much of a jabber he mixed up his punches a lot more then Wladimer does. There is no reason for Wladimer to not steamroll his competition.

Wladimer for all his talents should be knocking people out in the first 2 rounds like he did Ray Austin, he is a guy who has won a fight using only his left hand by knockout in 2 rounds you can't convince me he doesnt underperform if he cannot knockout Rahman in one.

He has no excuse for his subpar performances or doing just enough to win when he should be dominating in a better fashion then he does. He jabs for 9 rounds then finishes you. He could do that about 6 rounds earlier.

You cannot compare him to Cory Spinks, Cory doesn't have any power and has to fight the way he does because everyone else he fights has a power advantage over him or a weight advantage or something similar. You cannot say the same about Wladimer. Wladimer has many tools at his disposal and soo many advantages over everyone he fights he could do a lot more then jab for 9 rounds and knock them out. Wladimer is someone who has every single advantage over someone he fights. What is Wladimer's excuse for having to fight the way he does? Someone who has every advantage over every heavyweight in the division currently can afford to more then jab and use his right hand. Sure thats all he has to do to win but its not all he can do to win. Its just one way to do it. Wladimer is skilled enough to beat a fighter many ways and he chooses to do the bare minimum, and thats thje problem.

[AdamGB]

As I said before it's a puzzle for the other heavyweights to figure out. By all means you can root for him to lose and say he's boring but he's not going to change and risk losing to please you and nor should he.

Yeah... why would he want to increase his PPV numbers?

[Majesty]

As I said before it's a puzzle for the other heavyweights to figure out. By all means you can root for him to lose and say he's boring but he's not going to change and risk losing to please you and nor should he.

Yeah... why would he want to increase his PPV numbers?

HBO didn't even want to buy the fight. If you are the representative of the Heavyweight division and you have to fight on ESPN classic then that should say something. AS much as they've been on Wlad's nuts lately they don't even want to televise the fight.

[Kev]

As I said before it's a puzzle for the other heavyweights to figure out. By all means you can root for him to lose and say he's boring but he's not going to change and risk losing to please you and nor should he.

Yeah... why would he want to increase his PPV numbers?

HBO didn't even want to buy the fight. If you are the representative of the Heavyweight division and you have to fight on ESPN classic then that should say something. AS much as they've been on Wlad's nuts lately they don't even want to televise the fight.

You talk as if Wlad made nothing from this fight and that he stunk out the arena.

As far I've read from proper boxing writers so far the general view is that is was an impressive performance last night, hardly a mediocre or below par performance.

I really doubt he cares that HBO didn't screen the fight seeing as over 61,000 people turned up at the arena, apparently the biggest boxing crowd in Germany since Max Schmelling knocked out Adolf Heuser in 1939.

Considering Wlad had this change of opponent at only 3 weeks notice, and Chagaev was fully trained and fit as he was preparing to fight Valuev it was a decent performance from Wlad.

[YIDDLE]

wlad is boring to watch but it works for him ,but he is overated the heavys are weak at the moment and his fight last night was like a sparring session

[AdamGB]

Yeah... why would he want to increase his PPV numbers?

HBO didn't even want to buy the fight. If you are the representative of the Heavyweight division and you have to fight on ESPN classic then that should say something. AS much as they've been on Wlad's nuts lately they don't even want to televise the fight.

You talk as if Wlad made nothing from this fight and that he stunk out the arena.

As far I've read from proper boxing writers so far the general view is that is was an impressive performance last night, hardly a mediocre or below par performance.

I really doubt he cares that HBO didn't screen the fight seeing as over 61,000 people turned up at the arena, apparently the biggest boxing crowd in Germany since Max Schmelling knocked out Adolf Heuser in 1939.

Considering Wlad had this change of opponent at only 3 weeks notice, and Chagaev was fully trained and fit as he was preparing to fight Valuev it was a decent performance from Wlad.

Who says I was talking about this fight in particular?

the 61,000 might have had something to do with the fact people thought they were paying to see a different fight?

And again, why wouldn't he want as much money as possible?

[El Kabong]

HBO didn't even want to buy the fight. If you are the representative of the Heavyweight division and you have to fight on ESPN classic then that should say something. AS much as they've been on Wlad's nuts lately they don't even want to televise the fight.

Apparently 61,000 people were more than willing to watch the fight in person...I think HBO fucked up to be honest, if they want David Haye so damn bad, why don't they sign him instead of Wladimir? If David Haye is the greatest heavyweight out there then why not sign him Well it's because Haye is all hype, he's beaten 2 bums, he may be "exciting" for some people to watch but to me he's just a very flawed fighter it's the difference in watching Arturo Gatti and Floyd Mayweather Jr. "excitement" vs SKILL.

You guys can talk shit about the heavyweight division but at the end of the day it has a dominant champion in Wladimir Klitschko, he won't get his respect now but he'll earn enough of it for people to bitch and moan about the next guy who tries to take over the division. The exact same thing happened to Lennox Lewis....why didn't Lennox take chances with David Tua Why didn't Lennox ALLOW Mike Tyson to hit him I mean that IS what you guys are arguing for when you are arguing against Wladimir and that's not boxing....so do everyone a favor and stick to the Toughman competitions you'll like that more than BOXING

[AdamGB]

HBO didn't even want to buy the fight. If you are the representative of the Heavyweight division and you have to fight on ESPN classic then that should say something. AS much as they've been on Wlad's nuts lately they don't even want to televise the fight.

Apparently 61,000 people were more than willing to watch the fight

Come on Lyle... which fight was that? It's easy to pull a fight from PPV... it's a lot harder to refund tickets/flights/hotel rooms/time off work.

[AdamGB]

I will compare Wlad to whoever I want. Floyd, Roy, and Bernard had every physical advantage you could have over an opponent (especially Floyd and Roy), they were some of the most physically gifted fighters (to me roy is the most physically gifted fighter ever) yet hold back because they dont want to LOSE. AND they didnt always fight the best in their division. 7.

is there any "best" of the heavyweight division at this point? You act like the Ring Rankings at heavyweight mean anything.

And Floyd imposes his will on people he is bigger that or feels he can. Ask Phillip Ndou DeMarcus Corely and Arturo Gatti how passive Mayweather is and Mayweather isn't a one shot KO guy either. Roy Jones Jr imposed his will differently on the fighter he had greater advantages over. And Roy was a small light heavyweight and Hopkins was a come forward fighter early in his career and then he was a boxer puncher later on, watch his fight with Antawn Echols the rematch where he dislocated his arm. Hopkins style only became defensive when he was hitting the ages of 38, 39, 40 which is understandable.

You cannot compare them to Wladimer. Neither of them were 6'6 and have a near 10 inch reach advantage over everyone else they fought. Hopkins was rarely taller of "bigger" then anyone he fought and the same goes for Roy Jones and Floyd Mayweather.

Wladimer outweights everyone he fights by almost 30 pounds average has over 4 inches in height on them and has almost a 10 inch reach advantage on them.

He has no excuse.

And donm't bash Roy for not fighting the best in his division and then say what WLad does means anymore. Basically the Heavyweight division isn't about fighting the best its about fighting who is the most popular. When everyone in the division is 6'1 or 6'3 and 220 pounds and you are 6'6 and 250 pounds is it really fighting the best? Like I said, Wladimer is the best at heavyweight but that doesn't mean anything at this point he has no one to challenge him because of his height, weight and physical gifts. He is a big fish in a small pond. Nothing more, nothing less. Roy and Floyd both moved up in divisions to win their titles and get their achievements, they didn't sit still at one weight class and give performances of jabs for 12 rounds just because they could. If Roy wanted to do that he'd have just stayed his whole career at middle or super middleweight and Floyd would have stayed at super featherweight.

Wiadimer has no excuse for his sub par performances. Tell me one thing he has to be worried about? He has youth on his side. Speed on his side. Power on his side. Height on his side. Reach on his side. Why is he fighting passively?

Why moan at Wlad for winning, and not Chagaev, Rahman, Thompson, Ibragimov, Austin etc for not offering him any challenge?

Bilbo you know that people do.

[generalbulldog]

I think the klitschko brothers gets grief because they are not American where the hype machine would be in full mode.

Let's take this for example, someone here posted in some other thread that Mike Tyson fought in a great heavweight division in his prime and was dominant. Really? Trevor Berbick? Pinklon Thomas? Bonecrusher Smith?
An over the hill Larry Holmes? An blownup light Heavy in Spinks? Razor Ruddock? Buster Douglas? Come on!

So what's wrong with the brothers being so dominant when this division isn't anywhere worse than Mike Tyson's day? They racked up KOs like crazy but they are considered to be boring, they don't take risks, etc.

[JazMerkin]

I do think that at times Wlad fights too negatively against guys he should be more open against & with his size advantage there isn't an excuse. However, Chagaev is not one of those guys, and Wlad's performance deserves praise, he pulled a shutout against a clever technical fighter.

One thing though, comparing him to PBF, RJJ & B-Hop is dumb, because those guys have all fought in divisions where they're smaller than the opposition & in the divs where they were well-sized, SFW & LW for PBF, MW & SMW for B-Hop & RJJ, they all fought fairly openly & generally looked good when possible. It's only against bigger guys or as age has slowed them that they could be said to have fought 'negatively', whilst Wlad has too often fought negatively against guys he could have beaten in style. As I say though, last night whilst it was a bit dull, was an excellent performance given Chagaev's ability.

[Majesty]

I think the klitschko brothers gets grief because they are not American where the hype machine would be in full mode.

Let's take this for example, someone here posted in some other thread that Mike Tyson fought in a great heavweight division in his prime and was dominant. Really? Trevor Berbick? Pinklon Thomas? Bonecrusher Smith?
An over the hill Larry Holmes? An blownup light Heavy in Spinks? Razor Ruddock? Buster Douglas? Come on!

So what's wrong with the brothers being so dominant when this division isn't anywhere worse than Mike Tyson's day? They racked up KOs like crazy but they are considered to be boring, they don't take risks, etc.

because Mike Tyson didn't fight to the level of his opposition and carry people that were inferior to him, he knocked them out, he didn't fight like he was at a disadvantage.