Aaron Pryor

[Master]

SRL took on Hearns who was more fearsome than Pryor and probably damaged/shortened his career in doing so. The Leonard that beat Hearns would have beaten Pryor and any other Welter ever bar SRR. The detached retina shortened his career.

[donnydarkoIRL]

SRL took on Hearns who was more fearsome than Pryor and probably damaged/shortened his career in doing so. The Leonard that beat Hearns would have beaten Pryor and any other Welter ever bar SRR. The detached retina shortened his career.

IMO
When Leonard and Hearns first met they both would have beaten SRR

[ICB]

SRL took on Hearns who was more fearsome than Pryor and probably damaged/shortened his career in doing so. The Leonard that beat Hearns would have beaten Pryor and any other Welter ever bar SRR. The detached retina shortened his career.

IMO
When Leonard and Hearns first met they both would have beaten SRR

Thats pretty impossible to say considering theres hardly anything of SRR at Welterweight, hell except for that clip Oumafan showed us a few days ago. I don't think i had ever seen SRR at Welterweight.

[JazMerkin]

SRL took on Hearns who was more fearsome than Pryor and probably damaged/shortened his career in doing so. The Leonard that beat Hearns would have beaten Pryor and any other Welter ever bar SRR. The detached retina shortened his career.

IMO
When Leonard and Hearns first met they both would have beaten SRR

I remember the guy who runs my boxing gym who saw SRR live a number of times saying that the SRR who fought at MW was only about 25% of the WW he was, & having seen the MW footage, if you take the quote with a pinch of salt & say he was 75% at MW then he was still better than any other WW ever. Fact.

[donnydarkoIRL]

Thats pretty impossible to say considering theres hardly anything of SRR at Welterweight, hell except for that clip Oumafan showed us a few days ago. I don't think i had ever seen SRR at Welterweight.

I don't really need to see the footage of SRR.
When I watched SRL and Tommy in that fight (and I've watched it a lot) I'm convinced they were the two best welters ever.

People often say that SRR was the best ever.
Yet when faced with an arguement, they exclaim
"But there's no footage of SRR to judge correctly."

How can anyone call him the best ever welter if they've never seen him fight welter?

I remember the guy who runs my boxing gym who saw SRR live a number of times saying that the SRR who fought at MW was only about 25% of the WW he was, & having seen the MW footage, if you take the quote with a pinch of salt & say he was 75% at MW then he was still better than any other WW ever. Fact.

I understand what you're saying Jaz but he was beaten plenty at Middle.
Far more than Tommy or Ray in fact.
Any o9ld time English boxer would have seen him lose to Turpin (albeit on the tail end of a dominant European tour.)

I feel that SRR has become a mythical figure.
People atest to his greatness, without question and as I said to Ice without evidence.
Sure he was great, his record solidifies this as a fact, but I think his status has been embossed in gold through the combination of nostalgia and longing for an embodiment of the perfect fighter.

[YIDDLE]

leonard as has been said would not risk his tittles and possible high earning fights to fight pryor ,and why should pryor have to fight at welterweight before getting a tittle shot,he was a dominant champion who in this era would get a tittle shot at a higher weight with-out having to, pryor would crowd leonard just like duran did in thier first fight and get the same result setting up a great trilogy wheather or not pryor would win that trilogy is up in the air .....just my opinion

[CGM]

leonard as has been said would not risk his tittles and possible high earning fights to fight pryor ,and why should pryor have to fight at welterweight before getting a tittle shot,he was a dominant champion who in this era would get a tittle shot at a higher weight with-out having to, pryor would crowd leonard just like duran did in thier first fight and get the same result setting up a great trilogy wheather or not pryor would win that trilogy is up in the air .....just my opinion

You might be right, but really I don't think so. Pryor was good at crowding inferior (to him) fighters, but I don't think he could so easily have his way against Leonard. Sure Leonard lost it in the trenches against Duran, but that was in part because Leonard chose to fight there in the first fight.

[kingfrnk]

Thats pretty impossible to say considering theres hardly anything of SRR at Welterweight, hell except for that clip Oumafan showed us a few days ago. I don't think i had ever seen SRR at Welterweight.

I don't really need to see the footage of SRR.
When I watched SRL and Tommy in that fight (and I've watched it a lot) I'm convinced they were the two best welters ever.

People often say that SRR was the best ever.
Yet when faced with an arguement, they exclaim
"But there's no footage of SRR to judge correctly."

How can anyone call him the best ever welter if they've never seen him fight welter?

I remember the guy who runs my boxing gym who saw SRR live a number of times saying that the SRR who fought at MW was only about 25% of the WW he was, & having seen the MW footage, if you take the quote with a pinch of salt & say he was 75% at MW then he was still better than any other WW ever. Fact.

I understand what you're saying Jaz but he was beaten plenty at Middle.
Far more than Tommy or Ray in fact.
Any o9ld time English boxer would have seen him lose to Turpin (albeit on the tail end of a dominant European tour.)

I feel that SRR has become a mythical figure.
People atest to his greatness, without question and as I said to Ice without evidence.
Sure he was great, his record solidifies this as a fact, but I think his status has been embossed in gold through the combination of nostalgia and longing for an embodiment of the perfect fighter.

thats what i always thought. theres just not enough proof for me to consider him the best welter ever if i never seen him fight in that weightclass.

[ICB]

Thats pretty impossible to say considering theres hardly anything of SRR at Welterweight, hell except for that clip Oumafan showed us a few days ago. I don't think i had ever seen SRR at Welterweight.

I don't really need to see the footage of SRR.
When I watched SRL and Tommy in that fight (and I've watched it a lot) I'm convinced they were the two best welters ever.

People often say that SRR was the best ever.
Yet when faced with an arguement, they exclaim
"But there's no footage of SRR to judge correctly."

How can anyone call him the best ever welter if they've never seen him fight welter?

I remember the guy who runs my boxing gym who saw SRR live a number of times saying that the SRR who fought at MW was only about 25% of the WW he was, & having seen the MW footage, if you take the quote with a pinch of salt & say he was 75% at MW then he was still better than any other WW ever. Fact.

I understand what you're saying Jaz but he was beaten plenty at Middle.
Far more than Tommy or Ray in fact.
Any o9ld time English boxer would have seen him lose to Turpin (albeit on the tail end of a dominant European tour.)

I feel that SRR has become a mythical figure.
People atest to his greatness, without question and as I said to Ice without evidence.
Sure he was great, his record solidifies this as a fact, but I think his status has been embossed in gold through the combination of nostalgia and longing for an embodiment of the perfect fighter.

Well im not the person that says that Donny, i can't really tell how great he is at Welterweight because i've never seen a full fight of his at Welterweight, all we can go by is article's and other peoples opinions.

But from the footage i have seen of his at Middleweight, he looked pretty damn good. And well ahead of his time, so i can assume he was quite a bit better at his peak and at his natural weightclass.

But one thing i do disagree with you on Donny is the Middleweight thing, obviously SRR would lose quite alot at Middleweight. Because he wasn't at his best best weightclass, and he was past his peak. Plus he fought countless times at that weightclass.

Where as SRL only fought there once, and Thomas Hearns, only fought at Middleweight a few times. So obviously they wouldn't lose as much, thats pretty obvious.

SRR lost to Randolph Turpin, but didn't he bravely beat him in the rematch ? even great boxers always meet a style that cancel's there one out. But atleast he beat him in the return.

Where as Thomas Hearns lost to Iran Barkley at Middleweight, a fighter i truly believe would of been embarrassed by SRR. And Thomas Hearns lost the rematch aswell which is a big difference.

[donnydarkoIRL]

But from the footage i have seen of his at Middleweight, he looked pretty damn good. And well ahead of his time, so i can assume he was quite a bit better at his peak and at his natural weightclass.

But one thing i do disagree with you on Donny is the Middleweight thing, obviously SRR would lose quite alot at Middleweight. Because he wasn't at his best best weightclass, and he was past his peak. Plus he fought countless times at that weightclass.

Where as SRL only fought there once, and Thomas Hearns, only fought at Middleweight a few times. So obviously they wouldn't lose as much, thats pretty obvious.

SRR lost to Randolph Turpin, but didn't he bravely beat him in the rematch ? even great boxers always meet a style that cancel's there one out. But atleast he beat him in the return.

Where as Thomas Hearns lost to Iran Barkley at Middleweight, a fighter i truly believe would of been embarrassed by SRR. And Thomas Hearns lost the rematch aswell which is a big difference.

At Middleweight he was good Ice.
But simply that, he definitely wasn't great.
Naturally he would be restricted by his size and physique, but is that not a badge that many great fighters pride themselves upon ; the ability to rise through weight divisions effectively?
Certainly in modern boxing it is almost demanded that a fighter wishing to be categorised as great jumps divisions and triumphs.

Ray Leonard was restricted by size too but he beat one of the greatest Middleweights ever.
Surely to rise and defeat the great Marvin Hagler, is as great an achievement as SRR's mixed fortunes at Middleweight?
(Keeping in mind SRL also moved to LH with success, which SRR could not)

The Blade may not have been a great fighter, but his power was tremendous. SRR wasn't a defensive fighter, I see the possibility he would have been clipped by Barkley.

Robinson was great, of that there is no doubt, but I refuse to place blind faith in nostalgic boxing writers and reporters who say he was the greatest. I am not simply arguing the point that SRL and Tommy were as good as SRR, I am suggesting that there have been fighters since that have equaled and even surpassed him.

[JonesJrMayweather]

But from the footage i have seen of his at Middleweight, he looked pretty damn good. And well ahead of his time, so i can assume he was quite a bit better at his peak and at his natural weightclass.

But one thing i do disagree with you on Donny is the Middleweight thing, obviously SRR would lose quite alot at Middleweight. Because he wasn't at his best best weightclass, and he was past his peak. Plus he fought countless times at that weightclass.

Where as SRL only fought there once, and Thomas Hearns, only fought at Middleweight a few times. So obviously they wouldn't lose as much, thats pretty obvious.

SRR lost to Randolph Turpin, but didn't he bravely beat him in the rematch ? even great boxers always meet a style that cancel's there one out. But atleast he beat him in the return.

Where as Thomas Hearns lost to Iran Barkley at Middleweight, a fighter i truly believe would of been embarrassed by SRR. And Thomas Hearns lost the rematch aswell which is a big difference.

At Middleweight he was good Ice.
But simply that, he definitely wasn't great.
Naturally he would be restricted by his size and physique, but is that not a badge that many great fighters pride themselves upon ; the ability to rise through weight divisions effectively?
Certainly in modern boxing it is almost demanded that a fighter wishing to be categorised as great jumps divisions and triumphs.

Ray Leonard was restricted by size too but he beat one of the greatest Middleweights ever.
Surely to rise and defeat the great Marvin Hagler, is as great an achievement as SRR's mixed fortunes at Middleweight?
(Keeping in mind SRL also moved to LH with success, which SRR could not)

The Blade may not have been a great fighter, but his power was tremendous. SRR wasn't a defensive fighter, I see the possibility he would have been clipped by Barkley.

Robinson was great, of that there is no doubt, but I refuse to place blind faith in nostalgic boxing writers and reporters who say he was the greatest. I am not simply arguing the point that SRL and Tommy were as good as SRR, I am suggesting that there have been fighters since that have equaled and even surpassed him.

SRR was easily ahead on all the score cards against Joey Maxim until he collapsed in the 13th round from the intense heat due to fighting outside under 103 degree sun. Shit I think the ref passed out too. So to say he wasn't successful is misleading.

[ICB]

But from the footage i have seen of his at Middleweight, he looked pretty damn good. And well ahead of his time, so i can assume he was quite a bit better at his peak and at his natural weightclass.

But one thing i do disagree with you on Donny is the Middleweight thing, obviously SRR would lose quite alot at Middleweight. Because he wasn't at his best best weightclass, and he was past his peak. Plus he fought countless times at that weightclass.

Where as SRL only fought there once, and Thomas Hearns, only fought at Middleweight a few times. So obviously they wouldn't lose as much, thats pretty obvious.

SRR lost to Randolph Turpin, but didn't he bravely beat him in the rematch ? even great boxers always meet a style that cancel's there one out. But atleast he beat him in the return.

Where as Thomas Hearns lost to Iran Barkley at Middleweight, a fighter i truly believe would of been embarrassed by SRR. And Thomas Hearns lost the rematch aswell which is a big difference.

At Middleweight he was good Ice.
But simply that, he definitely wasn't great.
Naturally he would be restricted by his size and physique, but is that not a badge that many great fighters pride themselves upon ; the ability to rise through weight divisions effectively?
Certainly in modern boxing it is almost demanded that a fighter wishing to be categorised as great jumps divisions and triumphs.

Ray Leonard was restricted by size too but he beat one of the greatest Middleweights ever.
Surely to rise and defeat the great Marvin Hagler, is as great an achievement as SRR's mixed fortunes at Middleweight?
(Keeping in mind SRL also moved to LH with success, which SRR could not)

The Blade may not have been a great fighter, but his power was tremendous. SRR wasn't a defensive fighter, I see the possibility he would have been clipped by Barkley.

Robinson was great, of that there is no doubt, but I refuse to place blind faith in nostalgic boxing writers and reporters who say he was the greatest. I am not simply arguing the point that SRL and Tommy were as good as SRR, I am suggesting that there have been fighters since that have equaled and even surpassed him.

I understand what your saying Donny but i think you are underrating, Sugar Ray Robinson. He was decades ahead of his time, the left hook he KO'ed Gene Fulmer with is possible the quickest/greatest left hook i've ever seen. That was like a RJJ type performance and KO.

I don't think it was to do with him not doing well at moving through the weightclasses, i think it was due to him being past his prime. And despite all that he still beat some very impressive names.

Sugar Ray Leonard beat a faded Marvin Hagler, who was on the slide. I think Marvin Hagler was for certain ready to be taken. By alot of the young upcoming Middleweights at that time,

It was an impressive display by Sugar Ray Leonard who was coming off a lay off. But Marvin Hagler was on the slide, especially after that brutal war with John Mugabi, which took alot out of him. Had Sugar Ray Leonard fought on at Middleweight, and had fought the young upcoming Middleweights. He for certain would of lost.

By the way Sugar Ray Leonard fought Donny Lalonde at catchweight. Sugar Ray Leonard was 165 where as Donny Lalonde was at 167. The difference being with Sugar Ray Robinson, he was 157 when he fought Joey Maxim, and Joey Maxim was at 173.

Sugar Ray Robinson was winning the fight until the unreal heat got to him, he was suffering from heat prostration. Which can kill you i believe, although im no expert on it.

Lastly you have got to be kidding me if you think Sugar Ray Robinson, may of lost to Iran Barkley. You say Sugar Ray Robinson was no defensive master. No he wasn't but he still had great reflexes, where as Iran Barkley stood straight up and would just eat punches all night long.

Iran Barkley defeated Tommy Hearns because Tommy Hearns had a suspect chin, and suspect stamina. It was just a bad style match up for Tommy Hearns, who was the better fighter by far. But Iran Barkley could take his punches, and had the power to turn Tommy Hearns lights out.

But other than that what did Iran Barkley do ? he couldn't beat the smaller Roberto Duran, he couldn't beat Robbie Simms in an all out war, he couldn't beat Sumbu Kalmabay, who had good upper bodyment and a good jab. All of which Sugar Ray Robinson done better than Sumbu Kalambay.

He couldn't beat Nigel Benn, and he was embarrassed by James Toney. His career is based off two wins over Tommy Hearns. Now im not saying he was a bad fighter, because he certainly wasn't. But he was pretty lucky to get where he was, because he only had an average skill set. And his power although good was also nothing special either.