Felix "Tito" Trinidad the last real dominant WW Champ...

[ryanman]

Great Exciting Fighter I Agree

Joshashton, what performance do you think was better, when he beat ricky hatton or when he beat cotto?

[Puerto Rican Punch]

In order to DOMINATE a division you had to be the clear cut best, and sorry by not fighting Quartey and getting a GIFT decision against De La Hoya, whom by the way boxed circles around Trinidad for 9 odd rounds and basically showed the way to beat Tito, and yea IMO Trinidad did more to establish himself as the best at 154 then he did at 147, having the best title reign and being the dominant fighter of a division are two different things, although he didn't avoid anyone (IMO he would of taken fights with Quartey, Mosley, and Forrest if they would have presented themselves available) he didn't manage to make him the clear cut best in the division, if not left it open for discussion, and Trinidad was far from DOMINATING at 154, he struggled against a 15-0 David Reid and his fight against the 22 yr old Vargas was pretty much back and forth, a very competitive fight, far from domating display, fighters who have dominated their divisions are Hopkins at 160, Roy Jones Jr. at 175, Joe Calzaghe at 168, Calderon at 105, ect.

Dude, usually I agree with you, but how can you say Trinidad did more to establish himself at 154 than at 147? Tito only fought three times at 154 after moving up! Then later you say he was far from dominating at 154, but again, he only fought there three times, beat two champions, and didn't Tito knockdown Reid seven times? Vargas 4-5? And who did Quartey fight at 147 other than Oscar? I think you are giving Quartey too much credit. In terms of Oscar, he did not provide the blueprint to beat Trinidad. Hopkins did. Oscar was missing the power to stop Tito in his tracks. Hopkins and Wright had that power.

he was the clear cut best by the time he beat Vargas, because Wright was pretty much an unknown at that time, well maybe not unknown but he wasn't the force that he would later end up being at 154, aside from Carr, an old Whitaker, and Campas, what real capable fighter did he beat that was at his peak, DLH was a gift decision, again i'm not saying that Trinidad wasn't a force at 147, but he was far from dominant, and yea he dropped Reid a bunch of times, and yet still struggled in that fight, and De La Hoya gave the blueprint on how to beat Trinidad, Hopkins himself said that he studied that fight over and over, he dropped Vargas 5 times yet was only ahead by 3 points going into the final round before the final 3 kd's, he's an all time great, but he was never the most dominant fighter in the division, in fact there wasn't a dominant fighter in any of the divisions he fought in, except for 160, and that was Hopkins

Lets revisit the definition of not dominating fighter based on some Tito's highlights:

Welter weight champ from 1993 until 1999 when he decided moving to 154 after defeating De La Hoya to defeat an undefeated champ, former gold medalist (Reid), the reason why he did not fight Mosley or Forest. During his period at 147 he beat people like Campas (56-0), Carr (32-0), De La Hoya. With very few exeptions most of his opponents had good records, thus he fought the best of the division during his time. And we are not talking about heavy weights, there is quality in these divisions. We can argue that De La Hoya was a very close fight and perhaps De La Hoya could win (or could get KO) if he had more heart to fight and less mouth. To speak a little about gifts we can mention his "victory" over a Whitaker in a similar shape than the one that Tito clearly beat (don't want to mention other De La Hoya's gift such as Sturm).

From 1999 to 2001 fought De La Hoya (31-0), Reid (14-0), Thiam (33-1), Vargas (20-0), Joppy (32-1), Hopkins (39-2); 6 fight, 1 mandatory, 5 world champs and beat 4 of them, they had a combined record of 169 wins with only 4 losses. Not bad for a non-dominating fighter...

[Kel]

Great Exciting Fighter I Agree

Joshashton, what performance do you think was better, when he beat ricky hatton or when he beat cotto?

He can't be that daft

[ElTerribleMorales]

Dude, usually I agree with you, but how can you say Trinidad did more to establish himself at 154 than at 147? Tito only fought three times at 154 after moving up! Then later you say he was far from dominating at 154, but again, he only fought there three times, beat two champions, and didn't Tito knockdown Reid seven times? Vargas 4-5? And who did Quartey fight at 147 other than Oscar? I think you are giving Quartey too much credit. In terms of Oscar, he did not provide the blueprint to beat Trinidad. Hopkins did. Oscar was missing the power to stop Tito in his tracks. Hopkins and Wright had that power.

he was the clear cut best by the time he beat Vargas, because Wright was pretty much an unknown at that time, well maybe not unknown but he wasn't the force that he would later end up being at 154, aside from Carr, an old Whitaker, and Campas, what real capable fighter did he beat that was at his peak, DLH was a gift decision, again i'm not saying that Trinidad wasn't a force at 147, but he was far from dominant, and yea he dropped Reid a bunch of times, and yet still struggled in that fight, and De La Hoya gave the blueprint on how to beat Trinidad, Hopkins himself said that he studied that fight over and over, he dropped Vargas 5 times yet was only ahead by 3 points going into the final round before the final 3 kd's, he's an all time great, but he was never the most dominant fighter in the division, in fact there wasn't a dominant fighter in any of the divisions he fought in, except for 160, and that was Hopkins

Lets revisit the definition of not dominating fighter based on some Tito's highlights:

Welter weight champ from 1993 until 1999 when he decided moving to 154 after defeating De La Hoya to defeat an undefeated champ, former gold medalist (Reid), the reason why he did not fight Mosley or Forest. During his period at 147 he beat people like Campas (56-0), Carr (32-0), De La Hoya. With very few exeptions most of his opponents had good records, thus he fought the best of the division during his time. And we are not talking about heavy weights, there is quality in these divisions. We can argue that De La Hoya was a very close fight and perhaps De La Hoya could win (or could get KO) if he had more heart to fight and less mouth. To speak a little about gifts we can mention his "victory" over a Whitaker in a similar shape than the one that Tito clearly beat (don't want to mention other De La Hoya's gift such as Sturm).

From 1999 to 2001 fought De La Hoya (31-0), Reid (14-0), Thiam (33-1), Vargas (20-0), Joppy (32-1), Hopkins (39-2); 6 fight, 1 mandatory, 5 world champs and beat 4 of them, they had a combined record of 169 wins with only 4 losses. Not bad for a non-dominating fighter...

De La Hoya has never been one to really run his mouth and talk crap about his opponents, Trinidad did plenty of it and the person who tries to deny it, well i have plenty cut outs of his big fights in the past, not that most of it wasn't backed up but he talked plenty shit, no way in hell was DLH gonna get KO'd by Trinidad, if anything it would have been the other way around, Oscar/Tito wasn't a close fight, DLH won the first 9 straight, and there was no knockdowns, DLH beat Whitaker in a close fight, plenty pick that as a reasonable call, i had Oscar beating Whitaker 115-113, Sturm is the only really bad decision on his record, i had Sturm winning 115-113 or even 116-112, and that was already when DLH was out of his element at 160, do i need to remind you about what happened to Trinidad after the Joppy fight?
he got KO'd by B-Hop, beat a very weak Cherriffi (spelling?), retired, came back beat a Mayorga who had never fought above 147, then got schooled by Wright, then embarrassed he retired again, only to comeback and get schooled by an old merciful Jones, he could have KO'd Trinidad at any point after the 6th, again i'm not downplaying any of Trinidad's SUCCESS but he was never a Hopkins, Calzaghe, or Jones in ANY DIVISION he fought in

[Master]

After Mayorga, Tito has embarrassed himself and his legacy but he was dominate at welter and light middle.

[Rican]

he was the clear cut best by the time he beat Vargas, because Wright was pretty much an unknown at that time, well maybe not unknown but he wasn't the force that he would later end up being at 154, aside from Carr, an old Whitaker, and Campas, what real capable fighter did he beat that was at his peak, DLH was a gift decision, again i'm not saying that Trinidad wasn't a force at 147, but he was far from dominant, and yea he dropped Reid a bunch of times, and yet still struggled in that fight, and De La Hoya gave the blueprint on how to beat Trinidad, Hopkins himself said that he studied that fight over and over, he dropped Vargas 5 times yet was only ahead by 3 points going into the final round before the final 3 kd's, he's an all time great, but he was never the most dominant fighter in the division, in fact there wasn't a dominant fighter in any of the divisions he fought in, except for 160, and that was Hopkins

Lets revisit the definition of not dominating fighter based on some Tito's highlights:

Welter weight champ from 1993 until 1999 when he decided moving to 154 after defeating De La Hoya to defeat an undefeated champ, former gold medalist (Reid), the reason why he did not fight Mosley or Forest. During his period at 147 he beat people like Campas (56-0), Carr (32-0), De La Hoya. With very few exeptions most of his opponents had good records, thus he fought the best of the division during his time. And we are not talking about heavy weights, there is quality in these divisions. We can argue that De La Hoya was a very close fight and perhaps De La Hoya could win (or could get KO) if he had more heart to fight and less mouth. To speak a little about gifts we can mention his "victory" over a Whitaker in a similar shape than the one that Tito clearly beat (don't want to mention other De La Hoya's gift such as Sturm).

From 1999 to 2001 fought De La Hoya (31-0), Reid (14-0), Thiam (33-1), Vargas (20-0), Joppy (32-1), Hopkins (39-2); 6 fight, 1 mandatory, 5 world champs and beat 4 of them, they had a combined record of 169 wins with only 4 losses. Not bad for a non-dominating fighter...

De La Hoya has never been one to really run his mouth and talk crap about his opponents, Trinidad did plenty of it and the person who tries to deny it, well i have plenty cut outs of his big fights in the past, not that most of it wasn't backed up but he talked plenty shit, no way in hell was DLH gonna get KO'd by Trinidad, if anything it would have been the other way around, Oscar/Tito wasn't a close fight, DLH won the first 9 straight, and there was no knockdowns, DLH beat Whitaker in a close fight, plenty pick that as a reasonable call, i had Oscar beating Whitaker 115-113, Sturm is the only really bad decision on his record, i had Sturm winning 115-113 or even 116-112, and that was already when DLH was out of his element at 160, do i need to remind you about what happened to Trinidad after the Joppy fight?
he got KO'd by B-Hop, beat a very weak Cherriffi (spelling?), retired, came back beat a Mayorga who had never fought above 147, then got schooled by Wright, then embarrassed he retired again, only to comeback and get schooled by an old merciful Jones, he could have KO'd Trinidad at any point after the 6th, again i'm not downplaying any of Trinidad's SUCCESS but he was never a Hopkins, Calzaghe, or Jones in ANY DIVISION he fought in

I have followed Trinidad's career from thge beginning and I do not recall him bad mouthing anyone. I always remember Trinidad expressing the utmost confidence in his abilities rather than badmouthinmg or insulting his opponents. Perhaps you can get some direct quotes for me. I know that things got pretty heated during the promotions between the noted loudmouths Vargas, mayorga, and Hopkins, but it seemed like those three were the agressors.

So if Trinidad wasn't the most dominant during his reign at 147, a good question is who, in your opinion was? And what do you consider dominant?

[ElTerribleMorales]

Lets revisit the definition of not dominating fighter based on some Tito's highlights:

Welter weight champ from 1993 until 1999 when he decided moving to 154 after defeating De La Hoya to defeat an undefeated champ, former gold medalist (Reid), the reason why he did not fight Mosley or Forest. During his period at 147 he beat people like Campas (56-0), Carr (32-0), De La Hoya. With very few exeptions most of his opponents had good records, thus he fought the best of the division during his time. And we are not talking about heavy weights, there is quality in these divisions. We can argue that De La Hoya was a very close fight and perhaps De La Hoya could win (or could get KO) if he had more heart to fight and less mouth. To speak a little about gifts we can mention his "victory" over a Whitaker in a similar shape than the one that Tito clearly beat (don't want to mention other De La Hoya's gift such as Sturm).

From 1999 to 2001 fought De La Hoya (31-0), Reid (14-0), Thiam (33-1), Vargas (20-0), Joppy (32-1), Hopkins (39-2); 6 fight, 1 mandatory, 5 world champs and beat 4 of them, they had a combined record of 169 wins with only 4 losses. Not bad for a non-dominating fighter...

De La Hoya has never been one to really run his mouth and talk crap about his opponents, Trinidad did plenty of it and the person who tries to deny it, well i have plenty cut outs of his big fights in the past, not that most of it wasn't backed up but he talked plenty shit, no way in hell was DLH gonna get KO'd by Trinidad, if anything it would have been the other way around, Oscar/Tito wasn't a close fight, DLH won the first 9 straight, and there was no knockdowns, DLH beat Whitaker in a close fight, plenty pick that as a reasonable call, i had Oscar beating Whitaker 115-113, Sturm is the only really bad decision on his record, i had Sturm winning 115-113 or even 116-112, and that was already when DLH was out of his element at 160, do i need to remind you about what happened to Trinidad after the Joppy fight?
he got KO'd by B-Hop, beat a very weak Cherriffi (spelling?), retired, came back beat a Mayorga who had never fought above 147, then got schooled by Wright, then embarrassed he retired again, only to comeback and get schooled by an old merciful Jones, he could have KO'd Trinidad at any point after the 6th, again i'm not downplaying any of Trinidad's SUCCESS but he was never a Hopkins, Calzaghe, or Jones in ANY DIVISION he fought in

I have followed Trinidad's career from thge beginning and I do not recall him bad mouthing anyone. I always remember Trinidad expressing the utmost confidence in his abilities rather than badmouthinmg or insulting his opponents. Perhaps you can get some direct quotes for me. I know that things got pretty heated during the promotions between the noted loudmouths Vargas, mayorga, and Hopkins, but it seemed like those three were the agressors.

So if Trinidad wasn't the most dominant during his reign at 147, a good question is who, in your opinion was? And what do you consider dominant?

i don't think there was ANY dominant fighter at 147 during Trinidad's name, i consider a fight who basically cleans out the division, and pretty much effortlessly, and is already the undoubtly favorite to win is basically the most dominant fighter in the division, examples being Jones Jr 175, Calzaghe 168, Hopkins 160, Wright 154, and so on, Trinidad IMO didn't beat DLH and never fought Mosley or Quartey, leaving the division wide open for the taken, do i think DLH was dominant at 147, no, like i said no one really dominated the division

[Truth]

The only proof you should need to see Tito's dominance is how ODH fought the last 3 rounds against him although Tito's career is tainted for me because of the BHOP handwrap issue

[VictorCharlie]

I don't know how the last three rounds out weigh the utter boxing lesson Tito got for the first 9. I don't know anyone who discounts Trinidad as a great fighter and champion and I think it is safe to say he had the most meaningful reign at WW of his peers but I think it can also safely be said that by never fighting Mosely and a dubious win over Oscar leaves us without a clearly defined greatest WW of that era.

[Puerto Rican Punch]

he was the clear cut best by the time he beat Vargas, because Wright was pretty much an unknown at that time, well maybe not unknown but he wasn't the force that he would later end up being at 154, aside from Carr, an old Whitaker, and Campas, what real capable fighter did he beat that was at his peak, DLH was a gift decision, again i'm not saying that Trinidad wasn't a force at 147, but he was far from dominant, and yea he dropped Reid a bunch of times, and yet still struggled in that fight, and De La Hoya gave the blueprint on how to beat Trinidad, Hopkins himself said that he studied that fight over and over, he dropped Vargas 5 times yet was only ahead by 3 points going into the final round before the final 3 kd's, he's an all time great, but he was never the most dominant fighter in the division, in fact there wasn't a dominant fighter in any of the divisions he fought in, except for 160, and that was Hopkins

Lets revisit the definition of not dominating fighter based on some Tito's highlights:

Welter weight champ from 1993 until 1999 when he decided moving to 154 after defeating De La Hoya to defeat an undefeated champ, former gold medalist (Reid), the reason why he did not fight Mosley or Forest. During his period at 147 he beat people like Campas (56-0), Carr (32-0), De La Hoya. With very few exeptions most of his opponents had good records, thus he fought the best of the division during his time. And we are not talking about heavy weights, there is quality in these divisions. We can argue that De La Hoya was a very close fight and perhaps De La Hoya could win (or could get KO) if he had more heart to fight and less mouth. To speak a little about gifts we can mention his "victory" over a Whitaker in a similar shape than the one that Tito clearly beat (don't want to mention other De La Hoya's gift such as Sturm).

From 1999 to 2001 fought De La Hoya (31-0), Reid (14-0), Thiam (33-1), Vargas (20-0), Joppy (32-1), Hopkins (39-2); 6 fight, 1 mandatory, 5 world champs and beat 4 of them, they had a combined record of 169 wins with only 4 losses. Not bad for a non-dominating fighter...

De La Hoya has never been one to really run his mouth and talk crap about his opponents, Trinidad did plenty of it and the person who tries to deny it, well i have plenty cut outs of his big fights in the past, not that most of it wasn't backed up but he talked plenty shit, no way in hell was DLH gonna get KO'd by Trinidad, if anything it would have been the other way around, Oscar/Tito wasn't a close fight, DLH won the first 9 straight, and there was no knockdowns, DLH beat Whitaker in a close fight, plenty pick that as a reasonable call, i had Oscar beating Whitaker 115-113, Sturm is the only really bad decision on his record, i had Sturm winning 115-113 or even 116-112, and that was already when DLH was out of his element at 160, do i need to remind you about what happened to Trinidad after the Joppy fight?
he got KO'd by B-Hop, beat a very weak Cherriffi (spelling?), retired, came back beat a Mayorga who had never fought above 147, then got schooled by Wright, then embarrassed he retired again, only to comeback and get schooled by an old merciful Jones, he could have KO'd Trinidad at any point after the 6th, again i'm not downplaying any of Trinidad's SUCCESS but he was never a Hopkins, Calzaghe, or Jones in ANY DIVISION he fought in

Now I can understand better; we are just talking about 2 different Trinidad because I don't recall that trash talking that you are mentioning here in his career. I believe me. I followed Felix "Tito" Trinidad career (the one from Puerto Rico). One thing is confidence and stating that he was going to win (what my Trinidad did) vs the talk crap that the Trinidad you are refering to did. I don't think you got my point, when I said that De La Hoya needed less mouth and more heart, I was refering to the fact that De La Hoya all the time said that he wanted the rematch, but never stepped in the ring with Tito again. I was not saying that De La Hoya was insulting anyone. If there are no possibility that Tito could KO him, just asked yourself why De La Hoya decided to start running a marathon instead of stopping and KO Tito

We can certainly differ in opinions of who won, Tito or De La Hoya. This is why this forum is so intersting where we can share different opinions and point of views. But if you think that De La Hoya won all first 9 rounds and I really can question this judgment as being partial. So it really does not mean anything to me.

And, no I had not forgot what happened after Joppys fight, that is why I am saying that from 1999 to 2001 Tito fought 5 world champs and beat 4 of them. Just tell how many boxers can say this? Just a few, right? But I can also remember what happened during Joppy's fight and all the previous fights.

Being an undefeated champ for 6 year before unifying at 147, then quickly move to the upper divisions to unify titles at 154 beating to undefeated champs, and crush a solid champ at 160 before being stopped... and this is non a dominating fighter... what a contradiction. But as I said we can have different opinions and this is why this is so interesting.

[ElTerribleMorales]

Lets revisit the definition of not dominating fighter based on some Tito's highlights:

Welter weight champ from 1993 until 1999 when he decided moving to 154 after defeating De La Hoya to defeat an undefeated champ, former gold medalist (Reid), the reason why he did not fight Mosley or Forest. During his period at 147 he beat people like Campas (56-0), Carr (32-0), De La Hoya. With very few exeptions most of his opponents had good records, thus he fought the best of the division during his time. And we are not talking about heavy weights, there is quality in these divisions. We can argue that De La Hoya was a very close fight and perhaps De La Hoya could win (or could get KO) if he had more heart to fight and less mouth. To speak a little about gifts we can mention his "victory" over a Whitaker in a similar shape than the one that Tito clearly beat (don't want to mention other De La Hoya's gift such as Sturm).

From 1999 to 2001 fought De La Hoya (31-0), Reid (14-0), Thiam (33-1), Vargas (20-0), Joppy (32-1), Hopkins (39-2); 6 fight, 1 mandatory, 5 world champs and beat 4 of them, they had a combined record of 169 wins with only 4 losses. Not bad for a non-dominating fighter...

De La Hoya has never been one to really run his mouth and talk crap about his opponents, Trinidad did plenty of it and the person who tries to deny it, well i have plenty cut outs of his big fights in the past, not that most of it wasn't backed up but he talked plenty shit, no way in hell was DLH gonna get KO'd by Trinidad, if anything it would have been the other way around, Oscar/Tito wasn't a close fight, DLH won the first 9 straight, and there was no knockdowns, DLH beat Whitaker in a close fight, plenty pick that as a reasonable call, i had Oscar beating Whitaker 115-113, Sturm is the only really bad decision on his record, i had Sturm winning 115-113 or even 116-112, and that was already when DLH was out of his element at 160, do i need to remind you about what happened to Trinidad after the Joppy fight?
he got KO'd by B-Hop, beat a very weak Cherriffi (spelling?), retired, came back beat a Mayorga who had never fought above 147, then got schooled by Wright, then embarrassed he retired again, only to comeback and get schooled by an old merciful Jones, he could have KO'd Trinidad at any point after the 6th, again i'm not downplaying any of Trinidad's SUCCESS but he was never a Hopkins, Calzaghe, or Jones in ANY DIVISION he fought in

Now I can understand better; we are just talking about 2 different Trinidad because I don't recall that trash talking that you are mentioning here in his career. I believe me. I followed Felix "Tito" Trinidad career (the one from Puerto Rico). One thing is confidence and stating that he was going to win (what my Trinidad did) vs the talk crap that the Trinidad you are refering to did. I don't think you got my point, when I said that De La Hoya needed less mouth and more heart, I was refering to the fact that De La Hoya all the time said that he wanted the rematch, but never stepped in the ring with Tito again. I was not saying that De La Hoya was insulting anyone. If there are no possibility that Tito could KO him, just asked yourself why De La Hoya decided to start running a marathon instead of stopping and KO Tito

We can certainly differ in opinions of who won, Tito or De La Hoya. This is why this forum is so intersting where we can share different opinions and point of views. But if you think that De La Hoya won all first 9 rounds and I really can question this judgment as being partial. So it really does not mean anything to me.

And, no I had not forgot what happened after Joppys fight, that is why I am saying that from 1999 to 2001 Tito fought 5 world champs and beat 4 of them. Just tell how many boxers can say this? Just a few, right? But I can also remember what happened during Joppy's fight and all the previous fights.

Being an undefeated champ for 6 year before unifying at 147, then quickly move to the upper divisions to unify titles at 154 beating to undefeated champs, and crush a solid champ at 160 before being stopped... and this is non a dominating fighter... what a contradiction. But as I said we can have different opinions and this is why this is so interesting.

DLH made if very public that he wanted a rematch and Trindad's father (cause after he lost to Hopkins, Felix Sr is the only one who would give out statements) made it clear that Tito wanted no rematch, only time Trinidad said he'd give the rematch was if it was at 168 which is pretty ludicrous if you ask me, well and on the flip side, Trinidad's heart could be questioned using your logic, he always mouthed off on how he wanted a Hopkins rematch, yet when Hopkins openly offered it to him, Trinidad rejected it, Tito was a great champ, but there's a clear difference from being confident and being cocky, and for one to yell out "AND NEW IBF CHAMPION" before his fight against Vargas, show's he was plenty of cocky, DLH didn't lose more than ONE round in the first 9 against Trinidad, and that's not being biased, it's fact, stating that Trinidad should of got the W just cause DLH stayed on his bicycle for the last 3 rnds, even though Tito lost at LEAST 8 of the first 9 rounds, and there being no KD's or anything remotely close to one is pure bullshit, DLH gave Trinidad a boxing lesson, then committed the mistake of not fighting for the last 3 rounds, DLH threw away the fight more than Trinidad won it, y bueno yo soy de Aguadilla/Isabela Puerto Rico, solo que no dejo el dicho de yo ser Boricua dejarme ciego a la verdad, y la verdad es que no hubo un #1 claro en los 147 libras en ese tiempo, DLH and Trinidad IMO were dead even, and their fight basically didn't answer anything cause of the bad decision, and even if the right decision would have been made i wouldn't say that DLH was a dominant champ at 147

[Taeth]

No Trinidad wasn't the last real dominant WW champion, Oscar made him look like an amateur and got robbed in the process.

[Puerto Rican Punch]

De La Hoya has never been one to really run his mouth and talk crap about his opponents, Trinidad did plenty of it and the person who tries to deny it, well i have plenty cut outs of his big fights in the past, not that most of it wasn't backed up but he talked plenty shit, no way in hell was DLH gonna get KO'd by Trinidad, if anything it would have been the other way around, Oscar/Tito wasn't a close fight, DLH won the first 9 straight, and there was no knockdowns, DLH beat Whitaker in a close fight, plenty pick that as a reasonable call, i had Oscar beating Whitaker 115-113, Sturm is the only really bad decision on his record, i had Sturm winning 115-113 or even 116-112, and that was already when DLH was out of his element at 160, do i need to remind you about what happened to Trinidad after the Joppy fight?
he got KO'd by B-Hop, beat a very weak Cherriffi (spelling?), retired, came back beat a Mayorga who had never fought above 147, then got schooled by Wright, then embarrassed he retired again, only to comeback and get schooled by an old merciful Jones, he could have KO'd Trinidad at any point after the 6th, again i'm not downplaying any of Trinidad's SUCCESS but he was never a Hopkins, Calzaghe, or Jones in ANY DIVISION he fought in

Now I can understand better; we are just talking about 2 different Trinidad because I don't recall that trash talking that you are mentioning here in his career. I believe me. I followed Felix "Tito" Trinidad career (the one from Puerto Rico). One thing is confidence and stating that he was going to win (what my Trinidad did) vs the talk crap that the Trinidad you are refering to did. I don't think you got my point, when I said that De La Hoya needed less mouth and more heart, I was refering to the fact that De La Hoya all the time said that he wanted the rematch, but never stepped in the ring with Tito again. I was not saying that De La Hoya was insulting anyone. If there are no possibility that Tito could KO him, just asked yourself why De La Hoya decided to start running a marathon instead of stopping and KO Tito

We can certainly differ in opinions of who won, Tito or De La Hoya. This is why this forum is so intersting where we can share different opinions and point of views. But if you think that De La Hoya won all first 9 rounds and I really can question this judgment as being partial. So it really does not mean anything to me.

And, no I had not forgot what happened after Joppys fight, that is why I am saying that from 1999 to 2001 Tito fought 5 world champs and beat 4 of them. Just tell how many boxers can say this? Just a few, right? But I can also remember what happened during Joppy's fight and all the previous fights.

Being an undefeated champ for 6 year before unifying at 147, then quickly move to the upper divisions to unify titles at 154 beating to undefeated champs, and crush a solid champ at 160 before being stopped... and this is non a dominating fighter... what a contradiction. But as I said we can have different opinions and this is why this is so interesting.

DLH made if very public that he wanted a rematch and Trindad's father (cause after he lost to Hopkins, Felix Sr is the only one who would give out statements) made it clear that Tito wanted no rematch, only time Trinidad said he'd give the rematch was if it was at 168 which is pretty ludicrous if you ask me, well and on the flip side, Trinidad's heart could be questioned using your logic, he always mouthed off on how he wanted a Hopkins rematch, yet when Hopkins openly offered it to him, Trinidad rejected it, Tito was a great champ, but there's a clear difference from being confident and being cocky, and for one to yell out "AND NEW IBF CHAMPION" before his fight against Vargas, show's he was plenty of cocky, DLH didn't lose more than ONE round in the first 9 against Trinidad, and that's not being biased, it's fact, stating that Trinidad should of got the W just cause DLH stayed on his bicycle for the last 3 rnds, even though Tito lost at LEAST 8 of the first 9 rounds, and there being no KD's or anything remotely close to one is pure bullshit, DLH gave Trinidad a boxing lesson, then committed the mistake of not fighting for the last 3 rounds, DLH threw away the fight more than Trinidad won it, y bueno yo soy de Aguadilla/Isabela Puerto Rico, solo que no dejo el dicho de yo ser Boricua dejarme ciego a la verdad, y la verdad es que no hubo un #1 claro en los 147 libras en ese tiempo, DLH and Trinidad IMO were dead even, and their fight basically didn't answer anything cause of the bad decision, and even if the right decision would have been made i wouldn't say that DLH was a dominant champ at 147

Mi pana, Aguadilla e Isabela son dos pueblos distintos. There were talking about a rematch before Trinidad fought at 160. I don't know why we are saying that Trinindad wanted the fight only at 168. This could be after his last come back where Trinidad Sr. did not want Tito to fight at 160 or intermediate weights between 160 and 154, and this is where I can agree with you, I feel that Tito's father did more bad than good in the last stage of his career. However, if you had follow this saga, do you remember when De La Hoya said that he could fight Tito at 160 weight even if he had to put rocks on his pockets to make the weight This was when Tito was at 160, but it seems that Sturm cleared De La Hoya's head. The rematch talking started way before Tito was at 168 and there was never an agreement. De La Hoya said that in the rematch that never happened he was going to fight as a pure Mexican Macho. This is what I criticize of him because he had the chance to fight and KO Tito, if he was so confortable in that fight based on what you are saying; why Chicken De La Hoya "the macho" did not stop and fight to KO Trinidad??

At least this time you accepted that Tito at least won one round between 1 and 9, watch again and you may find some others. In some rounds Tito was chasing De La Hoya for 2.5 minites and then the last couple of seconds De La Hoya threw some combos and of course he has quick hands and that can impress, but that is why there are professional judges. Y mi pana, no es ser ciego. Es claro que Tito fue dominado por Hopkins y Winky, y aunque tuvo un bien comienzo con con RJJ, que espero hayas visto los primeros 6 rounds, la fortaleza de Jones se impuso cundo lastimó a Tito. He ganado muchas veces apostando contra el boxeador boricua, asi que se dejar el corazón al lado cuando hay que hacerlo.

[Rican]

Now I can understand better; we are just talking about 2 different Trinidad because I don't recall that trash talking that you are mentioning here in his career. I believe me. I followed Felix "Tito" Trinidad career (the one from Puerto Rico). One thing is confidence and stating that he was going to win (what my Trinidad did) vs the talk crap that the Trinidad you are refering to did. I don't think you got my point, when I said that De La Hoya needed less mouth and more heart, I was refering to the fact that De La Hoya all the time said that he wanted the rematch, but never stepped in the ring with Tito again. I was not saying that De La Hoya was insulting anyone. If there are no possibility that Tito could KO him, just asked yourself why De La Hoya decided to start running a marathon instead of stopping and KO Tito

We can certainly differ in opinions of who won, Tito or De La Hoya. This is why this forum is so intersting where we can share different opinions and point of views. But if you think that De La Hoya won all first 9 rounds and I really can question this judgment as being partial. So it really does not mean anything to me.

And, no I had not forgot what happened after Joppys fight, that is why I am saying that from 1999 to 2001 Tito fought 5 world champs and beat 4 of them. Just tell how many boxers can say this? Just a few, right? But I can also remember what happened during Joppy's fight and all the previous fights.

Being an undefeated champ for 6 year before unifying at 147, then quickly move to the upper divisions to unify titles at 154 beating to undefeated champs, and crush a solid champ at 160 before being stopped... and this is non a dominating fighter... what a contradiction. But as I said we can have different opinions and this is why this is so interesting.

DLH made if very public that he wanted a rematch and Trindad's father (cause after he lost to Hopkins, Felix Sr is the only one who would give out statements) made it clear that Tito wanted no rematch, only time Trinidad said he'd give the rematch was if it was at 168 which is pretty ludicrous if you ask me, well and on the flip side, Trinidad's heart could be questioned using your logic, he always mouthed off on how he wanted a Hopkins rematch, yet when Hopkins openly offered it to him, Trinidad rejected it, Tito was a great champ, but there's a clear difference from being confident and being cocky, and for one to yell out "AND NEW IBF CHAMPION" before his fight against Vargas, show's he was plenty of cocky, DLH didn't lose more than ONE round in the first 9 against Trinidad, and that's not being biased, it's fact, stating that Trinidad should of got the W just cause DLH stayed on his bicycle for the last 3 rnds, even though Tito lost at LEAST 8 of the first 9 rounds, and there being no KD's or anything remotely close to one is pure bullshit, DLH gave Trinidad a boxing lesson, then committed the mistake of not fighting for the last 3 rounds, DLH threw away the fight more than Trinidad won it, y bueno yo soy de Aguadilla/Isabela Puerto Rico, solo que no dejo el dicho de yo ser Boricua dejarme ciego a la verdad, y la verdad es que no hubo un #1 claro en los 147 libras en ese tiempo, DLH and Trinidad IMO were dead even, and their fight basically didn't answer anything cause of the bad decision, and even if the right decision would have been made i wouldn't say that DLH was a dominant champ at 147

Mi pana, Aguadilla e Isabela son dos pueblos distintos. There were talking about a rematch before Trinidad fought at 160. I don't know why we are saying that Trinindad wanted the fight only at 168. This could be after his last come back where Trinidad Sr. did not want Tito to fight at 160 or intermediate weights between 160 and 154, and this is where I can agree with you, I feel that Tito's father did more bad than good in the last stage of his career. However, if you had follow this saga, do you remember when De La Hoya said that he could fight Tito at 160 weight even if he had to put rocks on his pockets to make the weight This was when Tito was at 160, but it seems that Sturm cleared De La Hoya's head. The rematch talking started way before Tito was at 168 and there was never an agreement. De La Hoya said that in the rematch that never happened he was going to fight as a pure Mexican Macho. This is what I criticize of him because he had the chance to fight and KO Tito, if he was so confortable in that fight based on what you are saying; why Chicken De La Hoya "the macho" did not stop and fight to KO Trinidad??

At least this time you accepted that Tito at least won one round between 1 and 9, watch again and you may find some others. In some rounds Tito was chasing De La Hoya for 2.5 minites and then the last couple of seconds De La Hoya threw some combos and of course he has quick hands and that can impress, but that is why there are professional judges. Y mi pana, no es ser ciego. Es claro que Tito fue dominado por Hopkins y Winky, y aunque tuvo un bien comienzo con con RJJ, que espero hayas visto los primeros 6 rounds, la fortaleza de Jones se impuso cundo lastimó a Tito. He ganado muchas veces apostando contra el boxeador boricua, asi que se dejar el corazón al lado cuando hay que hacerlo.

Many of those early rounds were even until de la Hoya would flurry with his pitty pat combinations during the last ten seconds of each round. Tito was such a dominant welterweight that he made Oscar a "chicken," which he was never known as before the Trinidad fight. Also, I remember the main reason the rematch with Oscar did not occur was because as always, de la Hoya wanted to control everything, especially the weight. Tito wanted the fight at 154 and Oscar was asking for a catch weight of 151. Tito, Papa, and Don King didn't need Oscar to make money, as they proved.

[Pacdbest2]

Tito lost to DLH. Everybody knows that.