Manny Pacquao, How great is he???

[Mr140]

Well to be honest i have him in top 30 somewhere which i thinks fair. But to be honest i cant put him in the top 10 ever because i have Sugar Ray Leonard in that spot. To me Pac while never be as good as Leonard was. But thats just me if you disagree well to each his own i guess.

[Mr140]

To be honest i have Pac rated in the same place i have Holyfeild rated. Some may disagree because of Holyfeild loses but thats mostly due to him staying in boxing to long. We while have to see if Pac while hang around past his prime like Holyfeild, Leonard and many others have done.

[leftylee]

I have to agree with Ice. He is a great fighter but somehwhat overrated. A lot of people are blinded by the De La Hoya and Hatton fights and forget what Marquez did to him.

He is by no means invincible or any shiit like that, I think Mayweather beats him. And there are also question marks over Cotto. I mean how much did Margarito take out of him. Look at how he looked in the Clottey fight. I don't think Pacquiao will gain massive amounts of great credit if he beats Cotto. Of course he'll gain a lot and so he should. But Mosely is pretty much the man at welterweight right now, and Cotto looks to be on the slide. And I think when Pacquiao beats Cotto (Which I think he will) people will raise the question of the catchweight at what they fought. IMO anyways.

[Mr140]

I dont think Cotto while be his best win be honest with you. His best wins and lose are some what of a question mark if you ask me. I thought he lost to both Mosley and Clottey and then to Margarito, Which we may never know unless they have rematch which may still happen i guess.

[killersheep]

I have to agree with Ice. He is a great fighter but somehwhat overrated. A lot of people are blinded by the De La Hoya and Hatton fights and forget what Marquez did to him.

He is by no means invincible or any shiit like that, I think Mayweather beats him. And there are also question marks over Cotto. I mean how much did Margarito take out of him. Look at how he looked in the Clottey fight. I don't think Pacquiao will gain massive amounts of great credit if he beats Cotto. Of course he'll gain a lot and so he should. But Mosely is pretty much the man at welterweight right now, and Cotto looks to be on the slide. And I think when Pacquiao beats Cotto (Which I think he will) people will raise the question of the catchweight at what they fought. IMO anyways.

The thing is how ever much you discount his resume, can you historically name 20 people who have better resumes with better success.

[leftylee]

I have to agree with Ice. He is a great fighter but somehwhat overrated. A lot of people are blinded by the De La Hoya and Hatton fights and forget what Marquez did to him.

He is by no means invincible or any shiit like that, I think Mayweather beats him. And there are also question marks over Cotto. I mean how much did Margarito take out of him. Look at how he looked in the Clottey fight. I don't think Pacquiao will gain massive amounts of great credit if he beats Cotto. Of course he'll gain a lot and so he should. But Mosely is pretty much the man at welterweight right now, and Cotto looks to be on the slide. And I think when Pacquiao beats Cotto (Which I think he will) people will raise the question of the catchweight at what they fought. IMO anyways.

The thing is how ever much you discount his resume, can you historically name 20 people who have better resumes with better success.

Your saying Pacquiao is in the best top 20 ever right now ? Or when he beats Cotto ?

[Spicoli]

Like every guy,where ever we have him now will likely be altered once he retires.Hindsights funny like that.I dont put to much stock in all of the p4p voodoo but it helps to judge a guy on what his opponents accomplish after they are defeated as well as where they realistically were in own careers at the time.It puts it all in full perspective.He's a great fighter,but to early to tell personally.

[generalbulldog]

Ring magazines top 80 fighters. This list was done in 2002. And here are the top 10.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Roberto Duran
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
8. Benny Leonard
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Pernell Whitaker

Pac and Mayweather are great but even if they win their next bout and meets in the ring and whoever wins that bout, won't make the top 10 imo. Pac has questionable decisions in some of his biggest fights, particularly his bouts with Marquez, and Floyd has a reputation of ducking the best fighters in the WW division. They're not getting into that top 10 list, even if they win their next 2 or 3 superfights. Hell I don't even think 1 of them will make it in the top 20. Here's the list from 11-20.

11. Carlos Monzon
12. Rocky Marciano
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Archie Moore
15. Sandy Saddler
16. Jack Dempsey
17. Marvin Hagler
18. Julio Cesar Chavez
19. Eder Jofre
20. Alexis Arguello

The top 20 guys have a better resume than Floyd and Pac.

[blegit]

Ring magazines top 80 fighters. This list was done in 2002. And here are the top 10.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Roberto Duran
6. Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
8. Benny Leonard
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Pernell Whitaker

Pac and Mayweather are great but even if they win their next bout and meets in the ring and whoever wins that bout, won't make the top 10 imo. Pac has questionable decisions in some of his biggest fights, particularly his bouts with Marquez, and Floyd has a reputation of ducking the best fighters in the WW division. They're not getting into that top 10 list, even if they win their next 2 or 3 superfights. Hell I don't even think 1 of them will make it in the top 20. Here's the list from 11-20.

11. Carlos Monzon
12. Rocky Marciano
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Archie Moore
15. Sandy Saddler
16. Jack Dempsey
17. Marvin Hagler
18. Julio Cesar Chavez
19. Eder Jofre
20. Alexis Arguello

The top 20 guys have a better resume than Floyd and Pac.

I think this is a great breakdown. Pac and PBF are great talents and if we went by just that then we have top 10 arguments. But their resumes and what they've done during their tenures are not that of the top 20. I think we need to see more from Pac such as fighting some different styles, like some elite boxer movers, than just the straight in guys he's been lunching on. I think we need to see PBF fight a Mosley(not a Pac) or some top 3 welterweights. I think both these guys have extremely rare talent but they both also have been more selective than the all time greats on the fighters and/or conditions of the fights. Maybe they're not that concerned with it. But if they want all time 10 status then they should take a page out of Henry Armstrong's book.

[josef4334]

I have to agree with Ice. He is a great fighter but somehwhat overrated. A lot of people are blinded by the De La Hoya and Hatton fights and forget what Marquez did to him.

He is by no means invincible or any shiit like that, I think Mayweather beats him. And there are also question marks over Cotto. I mean how much did Margarito take out of him. Look at how he looked in the Clottey fight. I don't think Pacquiao will gain massive amounts of great credit if he beats Cotto. Of course he'll gain a lot and so he should. But Mosely is pretty much the man at welterweight right now, and Cotto looks to be on the slide. And I think when Pacquiao beats Cotto (Which I think he will) people will raise the question of the catchweight at what they fought. IMO anyways.

which a lot of people including you thought he was gonna get slaughtered in those fights... the hating continues and so on.....

[Violent Demise]

I have to agree with Ice. He is a great fighter but somehwhat overrated. A lot of people are blinded by the De La Hoya and Hatton fights and forget what Marquez did to him.

He is by no means invincible or any shiit like that, I think Mayweather beats him. And there are also question marks over Cotto. I mean how much did Margarito take out of him. Look at how he looked in the Clottey fight. I don't think Pacquiao will gain massive amounts of great credit if he beats Cotto. Of course he'll gain a lot and so he should. But Mosely is pretty much the man at welterweight right now, and Cotto looks to be on the slide. And I think when Pacquiao beats Cotto (Which I think he will) people will raise the question of the catchweight at what they fought. IMO anyways.

which a lot of people including you thought he was gonna get slaughtered in those fights... the hating continues and so on.....

Nobody knew Oscar was that shot except for Freddie Roach. Roach called Oscar a "walking dead man". He himself said the fight would never of happened if he thought Oscar was any type of threat. Think about that for a second. How much credit you going to give Pac for beating a man who really couldn't fight any more? Hell Roach even went as far as saying he wouldn't get paid if Oscar won. He was that sure Oscar was finished.

[Dark Lord Al]

I think you have to give credit to pac for going through the divisions , and still carrying power and speed , opinions will always differ , especially when some love him and some hate him. Those who love or hate him really cant give and unbiased view. I do know what I'm talking about , take my hero Tommy Hearns for example , i would make excuses for him , and defend him in any argument , now however when older and wiser although still my favorite boxer ever , i can see both the good and bad in him as a fighter.
Its also like my view of Joe Calzaghe , because i hated him , i can never really give a balanced view , I'm always going to dwell on the bad parts of his makeup , and give little credit for the good points.
I do find it hard to understand why people hate PACMAN , he is exciting and is not a loudmouth, boxing in my opinion will be a worse place when Manny hangs up his gloves.

[yvonne]

[quote=Dark Lord Al;780921]I think you have to give credit to pac for going through the divisions , and still carrying power and speed , opinions will always differ , especially when some love him and some hate him. Those who love or hate him really cant give and unbiased view. I do know what I'm talking about , take my hero Tommy Hearns for example , i would make excuses for him , and defend him in any argument , now however when older and wiser although still my favorite boxer ever , i can see both the good and bad in him as a fighter.
Its also like my view of Joe Calzaghe , because i hated him , i can never really give a balanced view , I'm always going to dwell on the bad parts of his makeup , and give little credit for the good points.
I do find it hard to understand why people hate PACMAN , he is exciting and is not a loudmouth, boxing in my opinion will be a worse place when Manny hangs up his gloves.[/quote]

Exactly mate!Weather you like him or not he is just such a forceful game fighter who has'nt avoided anyone in his path.He's already got the well deserved status as a legend in the noble art world.We'll miss him when he eventually hangs up his gloves,soo weather you hate him or like him he deserve big respect.Boxing would be a lot boring now if he was'nt doing what he's doing now would it!

[Andre]

I think you have to give credit to pac for going through the divisions , and still carrying power and speed , opinions will always differ , especially when some love him and some hate him. Those who love or hate him really cant give and unbiased view. I do know what I'm talking about , take my hero Tommy Hearns for example , i would make excuses for him , and defend him in any argument , now however when older and wiser although still my favorite boxer ever , i can see both the good and bad in him as a fighter.
Its also like my view of Joe Calzaghe , because i hated him , i can never really give a balanced view , I'm always going to dwell on the bad parts of his makeup , and give little credit for the good points.
I do find it hard to understand why people hate PACMAN , he is exciting and is not a loudmouth, boxing in my opinion will be a worse place when Manny hangs up his gloves.

Al I dont think any real fight fans hate Pacman personally ,they do hate alot of his fans.

So they try to pull them all down a peg every chance they can get.

I can see why; every Pac related thread for months on the main board was designed as an alter for Manny so that his fans could feel even better about him in his greatness or that they are the greatest boxing fans in the world or fight predictors and know more about the whole sport because one of their countrymen is on the top (then they must all know better than anyone else).

No disrespect to the Manny fans we have kept here who are all of a more balanced and humble point than some others that we have already got rid of.

You know who you are.

[leftylee]

I have to agree with Ice. He is a great fighter but somehwhat overrated. A lot of people are blinded by the De La Hoya and Hatton fights and forget what Marquez did to him.

He is by no means invincible or any shiit like that, I think Mayweather beats him. And there are also question marks over Cotto. I mean how much did Margarito take out of him. Look at how he looked in the Clottey fight. I don't think Pacquiao will gain massive amounts of great credit if he beats Cotto. Of course he'll gain a lot and so he should. But Mosely is pretty much the man at welterweight right now, and Cotto looks to be on the slide. And I think when Pacquiao beats Cotto (Which I think he will) people will raise the question of the catchweight at what they fought. IMO anyways.

which a lot of people including you thought he was gonna get slaughtered in those fights... the hating continues and so on.....

VD already touched upon De La Hoya so I'll discuss Hatton.

Ricky Hatton's punch resistance had gone when Pacquiao got to him. I shamefully admit I was blinded by the Malignaggi fight. Look at the 2 fights before that and Lazcano rocked him (Not overly rocked like what some fools say, but enough) and Mayweather knocked him out. The reason he looked like he could take a shot of Malignaggi is simple, Paulie can't punch.

Hatton's chin had been exposed and he couldn't take a shot no more. Manny Pacquiao never finished Hatton, he was already done. In hindsight though nobody could see it bar a few. Maybe heart got in the way of me choosing Hatton, I dunno. But it was dumb to think Ricky Hatton could beat Pacquiao on May 2nd. If Hatton would have fought Pacquiao straight after Lazcano I would have had Manny the favourite. Everybody would. The Malignaggi fight blinded us. We all thought the Hatton of 2005 is back with Floyd Sr. How wrong were we.