thanks alot i can see what you say about how visible they are isnt important although it would be nice. could any1 explain how to do a crunch as i would like to do them. it would benefit me more and as alot of punching power comes from your abs i may as well make them all they can be so i can become all i can be. thanks alot for the help ive recieved and if any more comes that would be great cheers.