How do Americans feel about the way Native Americans were treated?

[El Kabong]

....OK fine, you want to be right, then go right ahead.

I just float out a theory and along comes Negative Nancy to try and shame me into not thinking outside the box.

Mice Lacking Gene Show Reduced Alcohol Preference And Sensitivity

I would venture to guess that lacking the D2 receptor is probably an adaptation to an environmental stimulus, but hey what do I know. Have fun being right.

[CFH]

....OK fine, you want to be right, then go right ahead.

I just float out a theory and along comes Negative Nancy to try and shame me into not thinking outside the box.

Mice Lacking Gene Show Reduced Alcohol Preference And Sensitivity

I would venture to guess that lacking the D2 receptor is probably an adaptation to an environmental stimulus, but hey what do I know. Have fun being right.

I never disputed the fact that there is evidence that, for some, there is a genetic basis for alcoholism and drug addiction. There is clearly evidence to support that position and I don't disagree with it. However, to say that that is the only reason for substance abuse is wrong. Alcoholism is a very complex problem, if it was easy to explain scientifically, psychologically etc. it wouldn't be the issue that it is. I do feel that there are a variety of factors, including genetics, that cause people to abuse and become addicted to substances and there is a wealth of evidence that supports this.

[JazMerkin]

....OK fine, you want to be right, then go right ahead.

I just float out a theory and along comes Negative Nancy to try and shame me into not thinking outside the box.

Mice Lacking Gene Show Reduced Alcohol Preference And Sensitivity

I would venture to guess that lacking the D2 receptor is probably an adaptation to an environmental stimulus, but hey what do I know. Have fun being right.

Lyle, why is it to avoid a debate where someone puts across a point that actually requires a reasoned argument to dispute, you play this 'victim' status? CFH is not oppressing you by disagreeing with you, his arguments are backed up by reasoning, not 11 year old bits of tentative research that clearly didn't pan out. I mean you never felt the need to do this in any of your arguments with Lefty (may his Saddo account R.I.P.).

Why ignore debating & throw out sweeping generalizations or ignore difficult points altogether? I mean you're not going to get discredited. If you're not informed on a particular subject, you don't HAVE to throw yourself into the discussion, then try & be sarcastic when someone more informed calls you on it. If I did that, you'd be calling me out all the time for not knowing the particulars of the effect of the recession on Wall Street. Seriously dude, not every thread is an attack on you. This isn't actually meant to be an attack on you if it does read that way, it's just that you're clearly an intelligent guy & I find it frustrating when an intelligent person looks for cheap ways of 'winning' a debate, rather than using their loaf.

[El Kabong]

What do you want me to post? If I try and back up what I post everybody will say I'm ranting and now if I just ignore that I've been goaded into a discussion on whether or not alcoholism was or was not caused by 1. The introduction of a new stimulus into an environment 2. Genetics or 3. Socio-economic status because "the white man was evil" and not to mention people(Jaz) now comparing 9/11 to what happened to the Indians....Sorry I was born white, in America, to a non-muslim family, and post Trail of Tears or else I may have been able to do something about this.

I don't really care about the Indians today, sure historically they and their culture have gotten the shit end of the stick more than a few times. What do you want me to do about it? They run casino's here, they have reservations (where they don't have to live, but I do understand they are usually very poor in and out of the res.), they have zoo's here and they mistreat the animals (I am sure much to the dismay of their ancestors), and they sell cultural goods (blankets, furs, dart guns, dream catchers, etc) for huge profits or at least at high prices. Listen, I love the reverance for nature some (historically all the tribes were said to have it, now, not so much) have, I enjoy nature, I think there is a lot to learn from those who embrace their culture and don't chose to exploit it for profit(with the Casino's and zoo's), that's what I think of TODAY's Indians. The Indians of the past...well I wish things had worked out better for them, but that was not the case and I hate it for them because they did have great cultures and all that is slowly fading away with each passing year. That isn't something I can or should (given my background) try and fix, that is up to the Indian community to mend themselves and that's rough, but it is what it is....I personally can't un-kill people or un-Annex land for them, so I don't see why people should get all uptight when I post what I feel about the situation.

Now you guys can think whatever you want of me, but I'm not one to hold back my thoughts and opinions and maybe you think bad of me for it, but that's fine, at least you know where I stand. People have called me many names, racist, bigot, etc etc...I don't take it personally because I know in my heart I'm not one, but I'm sorry if there is a part of ANY culture I don't like I will not blink an eye before calling it out and I do it to the toothless redneck white trash and the uppity white collar yuppies just the same as any other culture so I think I'm being more honest than most people. I am not going to look past shady dealings in Casino's (like for example there are plenty of "Indians" and not Indians running them...just because your Great Great Grandmother sucked off a Cherokee brave doesn't exactly make you an Indian) or the poor conditions of their "zoo's" (it's more like a Concentration Camp for animals) just because history has been poor to them as a people...race/ethnicity/socio-economic status shouldn't be used as a crutch, that's a firm belief of mine and it would be the same if I was in their shoes.

So disagree with me if you like, but you know where I stand

[JazMerkin]

What do you want me to post? If I try and back up what I post everybody will say I'm ranting and now if I just ignore that I've been goaded into a discussion on whether or not alcoholism was or was not caused by 1. The introduction of a new stimulus into an environment 2. Genetics or 3. Socio-economic status because "the white man was evil" and not to mention people(Jaz) now comparing 9/11 to what happened to the Indians....Sorry I was born white, in America, to a non-muslim family, and post Trail of Tears or else I may have been able to do something about this.

I don't really care about the Indians today, sure historically they and their culture have gotten the shit end of the stick more than a few times. What do you want me to do about it? They run casino's here, they have reservations (where they don't have to live, but I do understand they are usually very poor in and out of the res.), they have zoo's here and they mistreat the animals (I am sure much to the dismay of their ancestors), and they sell cultural goods (blankets, furs, dart guns, dream catchers, etc) for huge profits or at least at high prices. Listen, I love the reverance for nature some (historically all the tribes were said to have it, now, not so much) have, I enjoy nature, I think there is a lot to learn from those who embrace their culture and don't chose to exploit it for profit(with the Casino's and zoo's), that's what I think of TODAY's Indians. The Indians of the past...well I wish things had worked out better for them, but that was not the case and I hate it for them because they did have great cultures and all that is slowly fading away with each passing year. That isn't something I can or should (given my background) try and fix, that is up to the Indian community to mend themselves and that's rough, but it is what it is....I personally can't un-kill people or un-Annex land for them, so I don't see why people should get all uptight when I post what I feel about the situation.

Now you guys can think whatever you want of me, but I'm not one to hold back my thoughts and opinions and maybe you think bad of me for it, but that's fine, at least you know where I stand. People have called me many names, racist, bigot, etc etc...I don't take it personally because I know in my heart I'm not one, but I'm sorry if there is a part of ANY culture I don't like I will not blink an eye before calling it out and I do it to the toothless redneck white trash and the uppity white collar yuppies just the same as any other culture so I think I'm being more honest than most people. I am not going to look past shady dealings in Casino's (like for example there are plenty of "Indians" and not Indians running them...just because your Great Great Grandmother sucked off a Cherokee brave doesn't exactly make you an Indian) or the poor conditions of their "zoo's" (it's more like a Concentration Camp for animals) just because history has been poor to them as a people...race/ethnicity/socio-economic status shouldn't be used as a crutch, that's a firm belief of mine and it would be the same if I was in their shoes.

So disagree with me if you like, but you know where I stand

Ok, once again you bring your race into it. What the hell is up with that? This has nothing to do with your race, yet you feel like constantly a victim because of it. Who the fuck are you, Al Sharpton??

Also, don't try & twist the 9/11 thing. Go to the top of this page & answer the question. I'll phrase it again. You say 'you don't give a shit about something that you weren't involved in'. Is it therefore ok in your eyes for a Muslim person to not give a shit about 9/11 because they personally were not involved? The comparison between what the settlers did to the Native Americans (the people whose land it was) & a bunch of Islamist nutjobs attacking Americans in the WTC (the people whose land it was), is not completely off the point, so don't act like I'm belittling 9/11.

The rest of what you said basically develops into a rant. You're right the Native American community do have a lot of problems. But... and here's a really crazy one for ya... how about rather than throwing out blanket statements, we have a reasoned calm debate. Everytime you start doing the 'victim' thing (highlighted), we lose all track of that while we have to deal with you going on about how we hate your opinions & are trying to oppress you.

You'll notice that nothing is highlighted in the middle paragraph. Do you know why? Because what you wrote was pertinent to the argument & I actually liked a lot of what you said, even if I didn't agree with all of it. It's this whining about how we're all trying to stop your freedom of speech that gets on my nerves Lyle, so please cut that out.

[Spicoli]

Is Leonard Peltier still locked up.Agree totally with swept under the rug on a whole.I'd say the reservations and conditions are worse off than many of the ones found in some housing projects.

[El Kabong]

Ok, once again you bring your race into it. What the hell is up with that? This has nothing to do with your race, yet you feel like constantly a victim because of it. Who the fuck are you, Al Sharpton??

Also, don't try & twist the 9/11 thing. Go to the top of this page & answer the question. I'll phrase it again. You say 'you don't give a shit about something that you weren't involved in'. Is it therefore ok in your eyes for a Muslim person to not give a shit about 9/11 because they personally were not involved? The comparison between what the settlers did to the Native Americans (the people whose land it was) & a bunch of Islamist nutjobs attacking Americans in the WTC (the people whose land it was), is not completely off the point, so don't act like I'm belittling 9/11.

The rest of what you said basically develops into a rant. You're right the Native American community do have a lot of problems. But... and here's a really crazy one for ya... how about rather than throwing out blanket statements, we have a reasoned calm debate. Everytime you start doing the 'victim' thing (highlighted), we lose all track of that while we have to deal with you going on about how we hate your opinions & are trying to oppress you.

You'll notice that nothing is highlighted in the middle paragraph. Do you know why? Because what you wrote was pertinent to the argument & I actually liked a lot of what you said, even if I didn't agree with all of it. It's this whining about how we're all trying to stop your freedom of speech that gets on my nerves Lyle, so please cut that out.

Well I'll try to behave just for you Jaz ........now I feel like I ought to add in a "just kidding" or something just so you don't get any more angry with me, but then again that wouldn't be pertinant to the discussion, would it

I don't know how relevant your 9/11 comment was and if it is relevant then I doubt it helps your argument. 9/11 happened 8 years ago, and certainly there are muslims out there who don't feel responsible for it and they shouldn't because they had nothing to do with it, not all muslims were a part of 9/11, I would hope that a majority of them especially the American muslim population would say that 9/11 was a tragedy and the people that did it are a shame on the religion of Islam. I am not going to paint that entire religion with a broad brush just on account of a couple crazy ass people. You may believe I paint Indians with a broad brush, but I can only comment on what I have seen and experienced and that mainly has to do with Cherokee and the Lumbee's (the Lumbee I don't think have official status yet, but they consider themselves Indians). If people who were involved in 9/11 (and I am sure there are quite a few still alive) don't feel bad about it then they are obviously bad people. The majority of issues with the Indians happened over 200 years ago so #1 it's impossible for anyone to be alive from that era therefore it is understandable if people don't reflect back on those times in American history and feel the effect in a visceral manner #2 With the Indians it was more than just 1 tragic event that caused their troubles, it was a history of broken treaties, wars, and general mistreatment over a long period of time, but there really hasn't been anything huge recently, just poor living conditions, low education, and high rates of drug and alcohol abuse. I am not sure why it's such a big deal that I am not kept awake at night thinking about Wounded Knee or the Trail of Tears, those things happened waaaaay long ago and to be honest I am not sure of any of my ancestors dealings with Indians negative or positive.....why does it irk you so much? Do you still feel bad about the Carnatic Wars or the Boer Wars? If you do then I think you've got a big issue with guilt.

I hope that this post is OK with everyone, if not then I'm sorry there's nothing more I can do.

[JazMerkin]

Well I'll try to behave just for you Jaz ........now I feel like I ought to add in a "just kidding" or something just so you don't get any more angry with me, but then again that wouldn't be pertinant to the discussion, would it

I don't know how relevant your 9/11 comment was and if it is relevant then I doubt it helps your argument. 9/11 happened 8 years ago, and certainly there are muslims out there who don't feel responsible for it and they shouldn't because they had nothing to do with it, not all muslims were a part of 9/11, I would hope that a majority of them especially the American muslim population would say that 9/11 was a tragedy and the people that did it are a shame on the religion of Islam. I am not going to paint that entire religion with a broad brush just on account of a couple crazy ass people. You may believe I paint Indians with a broad brush, but I can only comment on what I have seen and experienced and that mainly has to do with Cherokee and the Lumbee's (the Lumbee I don't think have official status yet, but they consider themselves Indians). If people who were involved in 9/11 (and I am sure there are quite a few still alive) don't feel bad about it then they are obviously bad people. The majority of issues with the Indians happened over 200 years ago so #1 it's impossible for anyone to be alive from that era therefore it is understandable if people don't reflect back on those times in American history and feel the effect in a visceral manner #2 With the Indians it was more than just 1 tragic event that caused their troubles, it was a history of broken treaties, wars, and general mistreatment over a long period of time, but there really hasn't been anything huge recently, just poor living conditions, low education, and high rates of drug and alcohol abuse. I am not sure why it's such a big deal that I am not kept awake at night thinking about Wounded Knee or the Trail of Tears, those things happened waaaaay long ago and to be honest I am not sure of any of my ancestors dealings with Indians negative or positive.....why does it irk you so much? Do you still feel bad about the Carnatic Wars or the Boer Wars? If you do then I think you've got a big issue with guilt.

I hope that this post is OK with everyone, if not then I'm sorry there's nothing more I can do.

Well, first off the bat, I see your point about 9/11. I agree it wasn't one tragic event, but I was more comparing the reaction to foreign attackers. Like you would hope Muslims would acknowledge it was a tragedy (which 99% do), I would hope you would acknowledge that what happened to the Native Americans was a tragedy, I don't think you should stay awake & cry over it, you didn't do it, but I do think acknowledging the problems that many actions in the past have created is important. That's not aimed just at America, but at the British, French & Spanish colonial attitudes that fucked up a greater proportion of the world.

Tbh, I agree with the vast majority of your post, I'd just prefer if you didn't think every disagreement with you was about your class, nationality or race. You'd think I had a chip on my shoulder if I kept doing that when no-one in the thread mentioned it. I do think the initial impact on the Native Americans has possibly permanently damaged their community, the issues seen there are very similar to the Aboriginals in Australia, as well as a number of former British colonies, particularly in West Africa & the Indian sub-continent.

Oh, and I personally wouldn't feel bad about the Carnatic or Boer wars, because my ancestors were definitely not involved, as I'm the multiracial son of a number of immigrant groups

[El Kabong]

Good, good, good...I'm happy that we're OK now.

When I bring up my race/class/ethnicity...I usually just bring up my race and where I am from because I feel I must further explain myself to keep from being called a racist and a bigot as I RARELY have anything to do with political correctness....I think being PC is for pussies, I like to speak my mind, but I also don't like being judged just out of pure emotional response to my posts. I don't think that happened in this case, but I always prepare for it to happen.