Michael Moore's "Capitalism"

[Gandalf]

....words cannot describe my dislike of that horrid bastard

I knew Lyle would have something to add to this thread!

[El Kabong]

Michael Moore tells half truths and twists everything to fit his view on the world. He's wrong about guns, wrong about healthcare, wrong about 9/11, and he'll be wrong about Capitalism.

Don't expect me to buy any of his propaganda anytime soon and don't expect me to brake if I see him crossing the street.


Michael Moore and Bill Maher are just horrible, I doubt if even Michael Savage mirrors them on the Right, that's how far off the board Left those two bastards are. And the thing is they want everyone to believe if anyone on the right extended a hand to them then they would be friendly towards it, but they are mean, bitter, and spiteful people and they enjoy playing to their base moreso than anyone main stream on the right...Limbaugh isn't even close to being as polarizing as those two

[Howlin Mad Missy]

Michael Moore tells half truths and twists everything to fit his view on the world. He's wrong about guns, wrong about healthcare, wrong about 9/11, and he'll be wrong about Capitalism.

Don't expect me to buy any of his propaganda anytime soon and don't expect me to brake if I see him crossing the street.


Michael Moore and Bill Maher are just horrible, I doubt if even Michael Savage mirrors them on the Right, that's how far off the board Left those two bastards are. And the thing is they want everyone to believe if anyone on the right extended a hand to them then they would be friendly towards it, but they are mean, bitter, and spiteful people and they enjoy playing to their base moreso than anyone main stream on the right...Limbaugh isn't even close to being as polarizing as those two

er no!

[Gandalf]

Michael Moore tells half truths and twists everything to fit his view on the world. He's wrong about guns, wrong about healthcare, wrong about 9/11, and he'll be wrong about Capitalism.

Don't expect me to buy any of his propaganda anytime soon and don't expect me to brake if I see him crossing the street.


Michael Moore and Bill Maher are just horrible, I doubt if even Michael Savage mirrors them on the Right, that's how far off the board Left those two bastards are. And the thing is they want everyone to believe if anyone on the right extended a hand to them then they would be friendly towards it, but they are mean, bitter, and spiteful people and they enjoy playing to their base moreso than anyone main stream on the right...Limbaugh isn't even close to being as polarizing as those two

How is he wrong about guns? They are dangerous weapons and kill a lot of people in the US each year. I have never understood the whole gun culture thing TBH.

How is he wrong about healthcare? He showed how corporate greed and irresponsible government policy has left a lot of people without insurance and how even those with insurance are oftentimes rejected of their claims. Health costs are apparently the main reason for bankruptcy in the States. The system needs to be reformed and Moore advocates this.

How was he wrong about 9-11? Bin Laden has never been captured. Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks anyway and the excuse for war was a lie. Both wars continue all these years later and Afghanistan appears to be unwinnable. Even the so called democratic government cheated its way to victory. Surely, that wasn't the goal. Many soldiers died just to replace a corrupt system with another less evil but equally corrupt system?

How is he wrong about capitalism? The system has failed and America is in deep credit. Wall street and the banking leaders continue to bank whilst the biggest economic disaster since the great depression is right around the corner (next year is when it really comes apart). The system as it currently exists does not work, it needs to be reformed.

I'm not attacking you here, Lyle. I'm just curious to know why you oppose Moore so much on these things. As far as I can see Moore is a fairly moral human being who wants better for his fellow citizens. Is that such a bad thing? I don't understand the intense dislike some have for Moore really.

[Fenster]

Moore is a bit of a hypocrite and comes out with some shit but he makes serious subjects, and boring ones, entertaining, which obviously gets people to take interest. Good stuff.

Plus if Lyle thinks he's wrong about everything that's a good thing too. Lets be honest now.

[OumaFan]

I don't care that much either way, he makes some interesting points at times and I agree with him about a fair amount of stuff but yeah you kind of have to have a bullshit meter on when you watch his stuff, kind of like if you watch Fox News but not as bad.

[El Kabong]

OK, here we go...

On guns, Moore thinks it's too easy for people to get them, they are too dangerous for people to own, and that guns are ONLY used to kill other people. When in reality #1 it's not very easy to get certain types of guns (automatic especially), if someone wants to sell you a hot gun or if you're a felon and you want a hot gun (ie a gun that has been used in a crime or was stolen) it's easy but it's also big time ILLEGAL #2 Guns are a deadly weapon which is why in some states you must pass a background check, training/safety course, and provide a reason for why you want the gun. The majority of LEGAL gun owners (I would estimate well over 90%) are very careful and serious around guns. #3 Guns are used for hunting, sport(target shooting), and for protection and those shouldn't be affected by idiots....idiots also drive cars, drink beer and liquor, and can fly planes.

On healthcare he's just plain wrong....if you got sick or injured would you rather be in America or England or Cuba or Canada If I had cancer I'd rather be here in the US because we are successful at treating cancer, more than Cuba, more than England, and more than Canada....sure I may have some hefty bills to pay, but I would be ALIVE.

Miles he skewed the facts about 9/11 it is a FACT. Now thanks to Moore and guys like John Stewart they think W just sat on his ass reading to little kids when he knew we were being attacked....that is a LIE. W didn't know, hell NOBODY knew we were being attacked until the 2nd plane crashed into the tower and....well the entire purpose of the film was to make George W. Bush look like a retard and everyone can go ahead and make their jokes and do all that crap but the man didn't panic, he kept his calm, and for that moment in time he showed some leadership. Have you ever thought for one second what may have happened if he just lept up and ran out of that classroom Do you not figure the entire country would have gone ape shit crazy And what was W going to do about the situation? At that moment in time it's the CIA/FBI and Pentagon that have to sort out what is happening and give W options for retaliation and prepare an address to the American people. I'm sorry, W wasn't the greatest President we've ever had but he handled 9/11 in a way any leader would have.

Miles, Capitalism works....are people better off in China or Russia than they are in America Are people better off in Cuba Capitalism has been very kind to our Middle Eastern friends who are sitting on all that oil. Did you ever make comparisons between East and West Germany during the Cold War Did anyone WANT to live in East Germany Does anyone WANT to live in North Korea Are there a lot of jobs in those countries Do they pay well "A rising tide floats all boats", JFK said that when he cut taxes in order to help create more jobs and that my friend is capitalism at it's best.

Michael Moore is a fucking moron, he lies in a genre of art DOCUMENTARY that is supposed to be objective and tell FACTS, instead he spins things....and because of that I think he's a horrible person.

[Kirkland Laing]

I'm sorry, W wasn't the greatest President we've ever had but he handled 9/11 in a way any leader would have.

Yes, by sitting dumbfounded in front of a class of six year olds for ten minutes then flying to Nebraska and hiding in the side of a mountain for three days before going on TV to talk to the peeps. Then failing to get the guy behind the attack, then claiming he wasn't bothered whether he caught him or not.

[Gandalf]

OK, here we go...

On guns, Moore thinks it's too easy for people to get them, they are too dangerous for people to own, and that guns are ONLY used to kill other people. When in reality #1 it's not very easy to get certain types of guns (automatic especially), if someone wants to sell you a hot gun or if you're a felon and you want a hot gun (ie a gun that has been used in a crime or was stolen) it's easy but it's also big time ILLEGAL #2 Guns are a deadly weapon which is why in some states you must pass a background check, training/safety course, and provide a reason for why you want the gun. The majority of LEGAL gun owners (I would estimate well over 90%) are very careful and serious around guns. #3 Guns are used for hunting, sport(target shooting), and for protection and those shouldn't be affected by idiots....idiots also drive cars, drink beer and liquor, and can fly planes.

On healthcare he's just plain wrong....if you got sick or injured would you rather be in America or England or Cuba or Canada If I had cancer I'd rather be here in the US because we are successful at treating cancer, more than Cuba, more than England, and more than Canada....sure I may have some hefty bills to pay, but I would be ALIVE.

Miles he skewed the facts about 9/11 it is a FACT. Now thanks to Moore and guys like John Stewart they think W just sat on his ass reading to little kids when he knew we were being attacked....that is a LIE. W didn't know, hell NOBODY knew we were being attacked until the 2nd plane crashed into the tower and....well the entire purpose of the film was to make George W. Bush look like a retard and everyone can go ahead and make their jokes and do all that crap but the man didn't panic, he kept his calm, and for that moment in time he showed some leadership. Have you ever thought for one second what may have happened if he just lept up and ran out of that classroom Do you not figure the entire country would have gone ape shit crazy And what was W going to do about the situation? At that moment in time it's the CIA/FBI and Pentagon that have to sort out what is happening and give W options for retaliation and prepare an address to the American people. I'm sorry, W wasn't the greatest President we've ever had but he handled 9/11 in a way any leader would have.

Miles, Capitalism works....are people better off in China or Russia than they are in America Are people better off in Cuba Capitalism has been very kind to our Middle Eastern friends who are sitting on all that oil. Did you ever make comparisons between East and West Germany during the Cold War Did anyone WANT to live in East Germany Does anyone WANT to live in North Korea Are there a lot of jobs in those countries Do they pay well "A rising tide floats all boats", JFK said that when he cut taxes in order to help create more jobs and that my friend is capitalism at it's best.

Michael Moore is a fucking moron, he lies in a genre of art DOCUMENTARY that is supposed to be objective and tell FACTS, instead he spins things....and because of that I think he's a horrible person.

Fair play on answering my questions, though I do take issue with a number of the points you make.

When it comes to gun ownership I just don't get it. I understand that America is a gun centred place but as someone who has only lived in places where guns are simply not available, I struggle to see their relevance in a modern industrialised society. I am never going to be shot living where I am and I am grateful for it. Homicide just doesn't happen in schools out here and there is no need for zero tolerance behaviour where every child is treated like a potential terrorist.

These are some scary stats:

Gun Deaths - International Comparisons

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
Homicide Suicide Other (inc Accident) USA (2001) 3.98 5.92 0.36 Italy (1997) 0.81 1.1 0.07 Switzerland (199 0.50 5.8 0.10 Canada (2002) 0.4 2.0 0.04 Finland (2003) 0.35 4.45 0.10 Australia (2001) 0.24 1.34 0.10 France (2001) 0.21 3.4 0.49 England/Wales (2002) 0.15 0.2 0.03 Scotland (2002) 0.06 0.2 0.02 Japan (2002) 0.02 0.04 0 Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.


When it comes to healthcare I think I would prefer to be treated in UK if given the choice of the US or the UK. And I would choose Canada over Cuba. The UK's NHS is a better model when compared to the system the US currently has. It's not perfect, but it is certainly not as flawed as the system the states has. It's funded by taxation and everybody is covered. I much prefer that to a system that either excludes or denies on a regular basis.

In terms of 9-11. I think Moore's potrayal of Bush was fairly accurate. He was a loafing, lazy president who couldn't think for himself. Responding to the attacks by targeting nations rather than using other means of targeting the actual terrorist group that caused the attacks was a fallacy and one of the reasons Bin Laden hasn't been captured and why America is still embroiled in two pointless wars. The Iraq war was expecially fucked up and I would still like to see Blair and Bush strung up as war criminals for bypassing the UN. Afghanistan was more just seeing as they harboured the Taliban, but rather than try to capture Al Quaeda through networking and forging links the US decided to do it the GI Joe way. Marching on in there without a plan and still there years later....and supporting a government that is highly corrupt.


And capitalism works? To an extent I would agree with you, but when it comes to modern banking practices and Wall Street running amok I think the system is fatally flawed. China is doing quite well. As is India. As is Brazil. As is Korea. I would argue that people in these developing countries aren't quite hurting as much as the US is now. A further quarter of a millions jobs lost last month and it expecting to rise through the next year. Oh, but the stock market is getting better! It shows the disparity between the American people and whats going on in Wall Street. Americans are losing their homes and have no savings. But yes, you can buy fast food very cheaply. The US doesn't appear to be a good place to live right now looking at the figures I am seeing. I am not against capitalism, but I am against ripping off your own citizens and that's what has been happening in the US for years. Why haven't real wages gone up in nigh on 30 years in the states? Quality of life is definitely not rising...but it is in many other countries where capitalism is still working.

[Drago]

i will be watching his new doc