Nobel Prize goes to Obama...

[Howlin Mad Missy]

Regarding abortion I guess it depends on what you consider life. Does life begin at conception or does life only begin at birth?

The generally held opinion these days it seems is that life only begins at birth.

Fo rme though life begins as soon as a feutus is created. Once it's in there, growing, living, to me it IS a human being. It's not going to exist at some point in the future, it's not only existing in some abstract alternative universe or so kind of third dimension, it exists, and is alive, right here and right now in our universe.

It's a human being, alive inside another human being. To me any discussion of abortion is the mother or parents, government etc basically saying we are going to kill this person because of......

It's just not justafiable in my world view at all, its infanticide and I don't see it as personal choice whatsoever.

If a person killed a baby born a few week premature they would be charged with murder and locked up.

But bizarelly if that same baby was still in the womb (still the same age, still the same person) it can be scraped out of the womens uterus and the only people in the wrong would be those who tried to put guilt on those involved. To me that's just baffling and completely illogical.

To be honest the wishes of the parents or the mother to me don't come into it at all. If a woman was struggling to care for her elderly parent and her life was miserable as a result she would (at least in theory at the present time) be committing murder if she decided to kill her.

You're giving a bunch of cells more rights than a women yet wanting to say they're all equal. BS Bilbo - as usual.


Maybe men should be more responsible when they go out to shag anything that moves...oh wait, that's right, YOU don't get pregnant.

Where we disagree is that I don't regard a developing child as a bunch of cells.

It's not about giving a bunch of cells more rights but rather protecting the rights of the unborn. Once the featus is developing its a human being right now imo and so abortion is morally wrong.

However I don't blame the woman as much as I blame society as a whole.

And I do appreciate what you say about women being the ones who actually deal with the process of pregnancy etc whereas men don't have any real responsibility at all.

It's a tough issue but the rights of the unborn need to be protected. The argument that they are just a bunch of cells only holds any force for the first few weeks at the very most.

Howdy, by saying a foetus can not be terminated - even if the woman wishes it - you are placing the rights of a potential human above that of a real-life walking/talking one.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

Men need to learn to keep it in their pants or at least ensure that a condom is used.

Guess who else do? ESPECIALLY considering as they're the ones who will have their body's go through a strenuous nine months (yes, I'm sure I can't even begin to imagine!!

That still doesn't stop there being a legion of slags out there who are more than happy to have unprotected sex with a complete stranger.

Both sexes are more than capable of being sluts.

Equally responsible, it takes two to do the dirty tango.

Totally agree.

If women don't want the hassle of destroying a child, then perhaps they should think twice about inserting the penis.

Or else ensure that the male is wearing one of those rubber things.

Either way, it isn't all that difficult to go through life without impregnating people. I have been married for 4 years, I have never once impregnated my wife, and I won't until I am ready to provide for my family.

The world would be better off with more people like me. My family in the UK are having children like rabbits. I don't relate to that kind of shit.

Mate I'm 22 and it's ridiculous how many of my mates/people I know are having kids... I can only think of one who was in a serious relationship with the woman and even that was unplanned.

I've been with my girl for almost 2 years now and with everybody getting pregnant left right and centre it's made me extra cautious. Never once had a scare and needed a test... it's easy.

Without going into too much detail (I'll probably get ripped for this), even when she's been using birth control, I've never... *ahem* finished bare back.

The lad I mentioned before... his lass was on it, it didn't work.

Women are far to eager to blame men for everything, even when an equal amount of the responsibility lies with them. Yeah there are loads of arseholes running around with their cocks out... these woman are more than happy to open their legs for them though aren't they?

I would hope no feminists would be stupid enough to say "using protection is the man's responsibility" because they're the same people who would rip a bloke's bollo"cks off for saying "Protection?! that's the woman's responsibility.

It's everyone's...

It's great to see guys who are responsible. Many women think it's enough to be on the pill, frankly, it isn't, never mind pregnancy and all the other STI's going round. Both parties should insist on a condom but that's a bit like saying don't get drunk and don't have sex when you're drunk.

[El Kabong]

Missy, how about we just close our legs every so often and then you wouldn't have to keep having these abortions.....

[Howlin Mad Missy]

Missy, how about we just close our legs every so often and then you wouldn't have to keep having these abortions.....

But I like the drugs too much

[Kirkland Laing]

So either it's "The stimulus needs time to work" in which case it's not the "quick fix" they sold us OR it's "We never knew it was this bad, we simply had no idea"

Kirkland, thank you for the chart though

Who told you it was a quick fix? This is another of your FACTS Lyle.

They knew it really was that bad, just when things are really fragile the American President, Treasury topper, Fed chief don't go to the media and say "It's really bad, we're fucked!" because that would send the markets into a spin. Instead you try and project confidence that things will get better. So they did exactly what they should have done. But nobody ever used the phrase "quick fix" to describe the response to the meltdown. Quite the opposite in fact.

[El Kabong]

Kirkland, Obama and Congress said "We need this stimulus package NOW and if we don't get it now we're screwed"....well if the majority of the money hasn't been spent yet and people are saying the recession is coming to an end then of course I am going to say "Did we really need it?" and if we did and we're now coming out of it or nearing the end of it then "Do we need to spend the rest of it?"

And if the Economic Stimulus Package is so great then why didn't you give W props for his Stimulus spending spree

[AdamGB]

You're giving a bunch of cells more rights than a women yet wanting to say they're all equal. BS Bilbo - as usual.


Maybe men should be more responsible when they go out to shag anything that moves...oh wait, that's right, YOU don't get pregnant.

Where we disagree is that I don't regard a developing child as a bunch of cells.

It's not about giving a bunch of cells more rights but rather protecting the rights of the unborn. Once the featus is developing its a human being right now imo and so abortion is morally wrong.

However I don't blame the woman as much as I blame society as a whole.

And I do appreciate what you say about women being the ones who actually deal with the process of pregnancy etc whereas men don't have any real responsibility at all.

It's a tough issue but the rights of the unborn need to be protected. The argument that they are just a bunch of cells only holds any force for the first few weeks at the very most.

Howdy, by saying a foetus can not be terminated - even if the woman wishes it - you are placing the rights of a potential human above that of a real-life walking/talking one.

That's the real issue to all of this though IMO... when do you decide that life is life.

I couldn't answer that question myself tbh... and with the world having so many different beliefs/theories/research etc I can't see people ever agreeing.... not when I'm alive anyway

[Kev]

Where we disagree is that I don't regard a developing child as a bunch of cells.

It's not about giving a bunch of cells more rights but rather protecting the rights of the unborn. Once the featus is developing its a human being right now imo and so abortion is morally wrong.

However I don't blame the woman as much as I blame society as a whole.

And I do appreciate what you say about women being the ones who actually deal with the process of pregnancy etc whereas men don't have any real responsibility at all.

It's a tough issue but the rights of the unborn need to be protected. The argument that they are just a bunch of cells only holds any force for the first few weeks at the very most.

Howdy, by saying a foetus can not be terminated - even if the woman wishes it - you are placing the rights of a potential human above that of a real-life walking/talking one.

That's the real issue to all of this though IMO... when do you decide that life is life.

I couldn't answer that question myself tbh... and with the world having so many different beliefs/theories/research etc I can't see people ever agreeing.... not when I'm alive anyway

That was my point Adam, it really depends on your worldview and your beliefs about where we come from.

If you believe we are created by God then life is sacred and abortion is self evidently wrong, if you believe we evolved then there is no such thing as right or wrong, but only societal norms, and hence abortion is fine,

The two camps will never agree.

@Missy, I don't see how giving a featus human rights elavates it above the woman, it places their rights on a par with them.

A woman couldn't decide to kill any other human because they didn't want them in their live so why should be able to choose to kill of their own child?

Granted other people arn't living and growing inside a women's womb, but they still need protection. The women does have free choice, she has the choice NOT to get pregnant if she doesn't want a child.

They arn't virgin births that are happening here, these women are getting pregnant because of their own actions, and part of life is that we have to accept the consequences of our actions.

But I do understand this is an extremely complicated issue and neither solution is ideal.

I am not against abortion in a legal sense, but I believe that education and support should be geared towards encouraging women, firstsly not to get pregnant if they don't want a child, and secondly that giving birth is given precendence and encouraged at all costs.

But it's an issue that will never really get solved as ultimately it depends on human nature changing, and that won't ever happen.

[Kirkland Laing]

Kirkland, Obama and Congress said "We need this stimulus package NOW and if we don't get it now we're screwed"....well if the majority of the money hasn't been spent yet and people are saying the recession is coming to an end then of course I am going to say "Did we really need it?" and if we did and we're now coming out of it or nearing the end of it then "Do we need to spend the rest of it?"

And if the Economic Stimulus Package is so great then why didn't you give W props for his Stimulus spending spree

Every time I point out you're wrong on the FACTS you invent new ones. Bush didn't need to spend money, he'd inherited a budget surplus, not a once-in-a-century meltdown.

[El Kabong]

Every time I point out you're wrong on the FACTS you invent new ones. Bush didn't need to spend money, he'd inherited a budget surplus, not a once-in-a-century meltdown.

Did I invent that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB_lILm-r50
"They need help now"...DIRECT QUOTE from Obama

As for Bush, if I recall correctly the Sub Prime bubble burst in 2008 while W was still in office.

[AdamGB]

Playing devil's advocate here:

If you had a migraine, your head is unbearably hurting... you know the tablet will start to alleviate it in about 15 minutes.

But you wouldn't think to yourself 'my head is fucking killing, I need a pain killer in 15 minutes time...' you'd need it 'now'

I'll admit I don't know a great deal about this stimulus, but saying that something is needed right now isn't the same as saying something will work right now, is it?

Like I say, I'm just being devil's advocate here and I probably won't have as much insite into this as an American would, but from the logic I've seen in this thread... Obama saying that something is needed right now isn't the same as saying that it's a quick fix, just that things need to be put into motion right now.

If I was going to piss my pants in 30 seconds time, I'd need to start walking to the bathroom... right now! It wouldn't be safe to piss as soon as I started walking there though

[Kev]

Playing devil's advocate here:

If you had a migraine, your head is unbearably hurting... you know the tablet will start to alleviate it in about 15 minutes.

But you wouldn't think to yourself 'my head is fucking killing, I need a pain killer in 15 minutes time...' you'd need it 'now'

I'll admit I don't know a great deal about this stimulus, but saying that something is needed right now isn't the same as saying something will work right now, is it?

Like I say, I'm just being devil's advocate here and I probably won't have as much insite into this as an American would, but from the logic I've seen in this thread... Obama saying that something is needed right now isn't the same as saying that it's a quick fix, just that things need to be put into motion right now.

If I was going to piss my pants in 30 seconds time, I'd need to start walking to the bathroom... right now! It wouldn't be safe to piss as soon as I started walking there though

Sounds like you are saying America is just moments from going down the toilet and Obama is rushing to find a potty.

I think though being about to piss yourself or already being in agony are things that demand a quick fix, actually the opposite of the point you were trying to make but I get what your saying.

A better analogy maybe to imagine you have you are on a nice camping trip with the plan to hike many miles. You have a target destination to reach by sundown but you're stuggling in rough terrain and are a few miles away still with only an hour of sunlight left. As the region is pretty treacherous and it may not be safe at night it might be more prudent to make a camp for the night where you are, putting you behind schedule and slowing your immediate progress but it will prevent any possibly accidents or disasters with you and your fellow campers wandering on these hilly slopes, in the dark.

[Howlin Mad Missy]

If you believe we are created by God then life is sacred and abortion is self evidently wrong, if you believe we evolved then there is no such thing as right or wrong, but only societal norms, and hence abortion is fine,

Does this mean because I don' believe in god I can do as I please?

The two camps will never agree.

@Missy, I don't see how giving a featus human rights elavates it above the woman, it places their rights on a par with them.

Because by saying she can't abort means the foetus's welfare overrides that of the mother. You are taking away her right to abort and replacing it with a foetus's right to life.

A woman couldn't decide to kill any other human because they didn't want them in their live so why should be able to choose to kill of their own child?

Because its not a living breathing thing. There are more premature babies surviving than before but only with massive medical intervention even then it is likley to have health problems because it wasn't fully developed before birth.

Granted other people arn't living and growing inside a women's womb, but they still need protection. The women does have free choice, she has the choice NOT to get pregnant if she doesn't want a child.

The only 100% effective method is to not have sex.

They arn't virgin births that are happening here, these women are getting pregnant because of their own actions, and part of life is that we have to accept the consequences of our actions.

If they're getting pregnant on their own you better start praying.

Good to see you'd force women to have kids they don't want, let's fill up our world with more unwanted. Great.

I am not against abortion in a legal sense, but I believe that education and support should be geared towards encouraging women, firstsly not to get pregnant if they don't want a child, and secondly that giving birth is given precendence and encouraged at all costs.

Education needs to be for both men and women.

I think you want to return to the 1950's and 60's where women were shunned for being bad girls.

[El Kabong]

Playing devil's advocate here:

If you had a migraine, your head is unbearably hurting... you know the tablet will start to alleviate it in about 15 minutes.

But you wouldn't think to yourself 'my head is fucking killing, I need a pain killer in 15 minutes time...' you'd need it 'now'

I'll admit I don't know a great deal about this stimulus, but saying that something is needed right now isn't the same as saying something will work right now, is it?

Like I say, I'm just being devil's advocate here and I probably won't have as much insite into this as an American would, but from the logic I've seen in this thread... Obama saying that something is needed right now isn't the same as saying that it's a quick fix, just that things need to be put into motion right now.

If I was going to piss my pants in 30 seconds time, I'd need to start walking to the bathroom... right now! It wouldn't be safe to piss as soon as I started walking there though

...fair points, but you also would not want to take so much of a pain killer to where you overdose, and that is kind of what I am getting at.

You also wouldn't want to be so paranoid for the next time you need to go to the bathroom that you never leave the toilet.

There's "what needs to be done" and then there is "overkill" and I am of the opinion that what Obama and Congress have done is "overkill"

[AdamGB]

Heh, yeah too many paracetamol will up set your stomach... not that I take the things... much to my girlfriend's annoyance! "JUST FUCKING TAKE A PAINKILLER!" (Am I going off topic slightly? )

Yeah, I don't know what or how much of 'what' your economy needs etc, or even if the stimulus is at all a good thing... I'm just being devil's advocate, cos I'm a dick like that!