Michael Moore's "Capitalism"

[Kirkland Laing]

I'm sorry, W wasn't the greatest President we've ever had but he handled 9/11 in a way any leader would have.

Yes, by sitting dumbfounded in front of a class of six year olds for ten minutes then flying to Nebraska and hiding in the side of a mountain for three days before going on TV to talk to the peeps. Then failing to get the guy behind the attack, then claiming he wasn't bothered whether he caught him or not.

[amat]

I'm pretty sure I recall Bush coming on TV later that day. Maybe he was in Nebraska but I don't think it was 3 days before he came on TV. And yeah, it's the Bullshitometer Oumafan referenced only it might be worse then Fox News. Agenda or no agenda he is a chronic bullshitter. And yes he is WRONG about guns him picking fights with fucken Charlton Heston (who was ignorant anyways) and Dick Clark (like Dick Clark was actually aware of that lady's situation) was just stupid. The whole thing was like a giant Starr post, it was made to distract you from the real points. He's a douche, pompous, arrogant and because of that he's also fat.

[El Kabong]

Yes, by sitting dumbfounded in front of a class of six year olds for ten minutes then flying to Nebraska and hiding in the side of a mountain for three days before going on TV to talk to the peeps. Then failing to get the guy behind the attack, then claiming he wasn't bothered whether he caught him or not.

...surprise surprise, guess who bought that fat moron's story.

When the first plane hit nobody knew what was going on Ari Fleischer told W to stay where he was and not mention anything until they gathered the proper information. After the 2nd plane hit and Bush was notified of it, he was escorted out of the classroom and got on board Air Force 1 and later on September 11th he addressed the American people.

People like you Kirkland will call out any and all "talking heads" on the right without batting an eye, but you will apparently take anything Michael Moore or Bill Maher says as the 100% gospel truth....fucking hypocrits

[OumaFan]

Bill Maher on the other hand is awesome.

[El Kabong]

Bill Maher on the other hand is awesome.

He's an awesome jackass and a hypocrit as well, same with Keith Olberman

[amat]

Bill Maher has always been so smug I can't stand that type of attitude so I haven't watched much of him. Keith Olberman does a pretty good job in studio for Football Night in America. Otherwise he's the democratic Bill O'Reilly. Obviously I find O'Reilly 10 times more insufferable but that's just because of my political leanings.

[Kirkland Laing]

Yes, by sitting dumbfounded in front of a class of six year olds for ten minutes then flying to Nebraska and hiding in the side of a mountain for three days before going on TV to talk to the peeps. Then failing to get the guy behind the attack, then claiming he wasn't bothered whether he caught him or not.

...surprise surprise, guess who bought that fat moron's story.

When the first plane hit nobody knew what was going on Ari Fleischer told W to stay where he was and not mention anything until they gathered the proper information. After the 2nd plane hit and Bush was notified of it, he was escorted out of the classroom and got on board Air Force 1 and later on September 11th he addressed the American people.

People like you Kirkland will call out any and all "talking heads" on the right without batting an eye, but you will apparently take anything Michael Moore or Bill Maher says as the 100% gospel truth....fucking hypocrits

You're wrong again! After he'd been told the second plane hit he sat there for seven minutes. Then flew to Nebraska and hid in the side of a mountain for three days. Giuliani went on TV the same day and made a reputation for himself vy taking control while Bush was hiding. Then Bush failed to get the guy who did it and then said he wasn't bothered if he didn't get him.

Bush's 9/11 Visit to Booker Elementary School- THE VIDEO

[Kirkland Laing]

Bill Maher on the other hand is awesome.

He's an awesome jackass and a hypocrit as well, same with Keith Olberman

How is Bill Maher a hypocrite?

[Gandalf]

OK, here we go...

On guns, Moore thinks it's too easy for people to get them, they are too dangerous for people to own, and that guns are ONLY used to kill other people. When in reality #1 it's not very easy to get certain types of guns (automatic especially), if someone wants to sell you a hot gun or if you're a felon and you want a hot gun (ie a gun that has been used in a crime or was stolen) it's easy but it's also big time ILLEGAL #2 Guns are a deadly weapon which is why in some states you must pass a background check, training/safety course, and provide a reason for why you want the gun. The majority of LEGAL gun owners (I would estimate well over 90%) are very careful and serious around guns. #3 Guns are used for hunting, sport(target shooting), and for protection and those shouldn't be affected by idiots....idiots also drive cars, drink beer and liquor, and can fly planes.

On healthcare he's just plain wrong....if you got sick or injured would you rather be in America or England or Cuba or Canada If I had cancer I'd rather be here in the US because we are successful at treating cancer, more than Cuba, more than England, and more than Canada....sure I may have some hefty bills to pay, but I would be ALIVE.

Miles he skewed the facts about 9/11 it is a FACT. Now thanks to Moore and guys like John Stewart they think W just sat on his ass reading to little kids when he knew we were being attacked....that is a LIE. W didn't know, hell NOBODY knew we were being attacked until the 2nd plane crashed into the tower and....well the entire purpose of the film was to make George W. Bush look like a retard and everyone can go ahead and make their jokes and do all that crap but the man didn't panic, he kept his calm, and for that moment in time he showed some leadership. Have you ever thought for one second what may have happened if he just lept up and ran out of that classroom Do you not figure the entire country would have gone ape shit crazy And what was W going to do about the situation? At that moment in time it's the CIA/FBI and Pentagon that have to sort out what is happening and give W options for retaliation and prepare an address to the American people. I'm sorry, W wasn't the greatest President we've ever had but he handled 9/11 in a way any leader would have.

Miles, Capitalism works....are people better off in China or Russia than they are in America Are people better off in Cuba Capitalism has been very kind to our Middle Eastern friends who are sitting on all that oil. Did you ever make comparisons between East and West Germany during the Cold War Did anyone WANT to live in East Germany Does anyone WANT to live in North Korea Are there a lot of jobs in those countries Do they pay well "A rising tide floats all boats", JFK said that when he cut taxes in order to help create more jobs and that my friend is capitalism at it's best.

Michael Moore is a fucking moron, he lies in a genre of art DOCUMENTARY that is supposed to be objective and tell FACTS, instead he spins things....and because of that I think he's a horrible person.

Fair play on answering my questions, though I do take issue with a number of the points you make.

When it comes to gun ownership I just don't get it. I understand that America is a gun centred place but as someone who has only lived in places where guns are simply not available, I struggle to see their relevance in a modern industrialised society. I am never going to be shot living where I am and I am grateful for it. Homicide just doesn't happen in schools out here and there is no need for zero tolerance behaviour where every child is treated like a potential terrorist.

These are some scary stats:

Gun Deaths - International Comparisons

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
Homicide Suicide Other (inc Accident) USA (2001) 3.98 5.92 0.36 Italy (1997) 0.81 1.1 0.07 Switzerland (199 0.50 5.8 0.10 Canada (2002) 0.4 2.0 0.04 Finland (2003) 0.35 4.45 0.10 Australia (2001) 0.24 1.34 0.10 France (2001) 0.21 3.4 0.49 England/Wales (2002) 0.15 0.2 0.03 Scotland (2002) 0.06 0.2 0.02 Japan (2002) 0.02 0.04 0 Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.


When it comes to healthcare I think I would prefer to be treated in UK if given the choice of the US or the UK. And I would choose Canada over Cuba. The UK's NHS is a better model when compared to the system the US currently has. It's not perfect, but it is certainly not as flawed as the system the states has. It's funded by taxation and everybody is covered. I much prefer that to a system that either excludes or denies on a regular basis.

In terms of 9-11. I think Moore's potrayal of Bush was fairly accurate. He was a loafing, lazy president who couldn't think for himself. Responding to the attacks by targeting nations rather than using other means of targeting the actual terrorist group that caused the attacks was a fallacy and one of the reasons Bin Laden hasn't been captured and why America is still embroiled in two pointless wars. The Iraq war was expecially fucked up and I would still like to see Blair and Bush strung up as war criminals for bypassing the UN. Afghanistan was more just seeing as they harboured the Taliban, but rather than try to capture Al Quaeda through networking and forging links the US decided to do it the GI Joe way. Marching on in there without a plan and still there years later....and supporting a government that is highly corrupt.


And capitalism works? To an extent I would agree with you, but when it comes to modern banking practices and Wall Street running amok I think the system is fatally flawed. China is doing quite well. As is India. As is Brazil. As is Korea. I would argue that people in these developing countries aren't quite hurting as much as the US is now. A further quarter of a millions jobs lost last month and it expecting to rise through the next year. Oh, but the stock market is getting better! It shows the disparity between the American people and whats going on in Wall Street. Americans are losing their homes and have no savings. But yes, you can buy fast food very cheaply. The US doesn't appear to be a good place to live right now looking at the figures I am seeing. I am not against capitalism, but I am against ripping off your own citizens and that's what has been happening in the US for years. Why haven't real wages gone up in nigh on 30 years in the states? Quality of life is definitely not rising...but it is in many other countries where capitalism is still working.

[CFH]

I'm pretty sure I recall Bush coming on TV later that day. Maybe he was in Nebraska but I don't think it was 3 days before he came on TV. And yeah, it's the Bullshitometer Oumafan referenced only it might be worse then Fox News. Agenda or no agenda he is a chronic bullshitter. And yes he is WRONG about guns him picking fights with fucken Charlton Heston (who was ignorant anyways) and Dick Clark (like Dick Clark was actually aware of that lady's situation) was just stupid. The whole thing was like a giant Starr post, it was made to distract you from the real points. He's a douche, pompous, arrogant and because of that he's also fat.

Wasn't Heston suffering the affects of Alzhiemers at the time as well?

[Gandalf]

I'm pretty sure I recall Bush coming on TV later that day. Maybe he was in Nebraska but I don't think it was 3 days before he came on TV. And yeah, it's the Bullshitometer Oumafan referenced only it might be worse then Fox News. Agenda or no agenda he is a chronic bullshitter. And yes he is WRONG about guns him picking fights with fucken Charlton Heston (who was ignorant anyways) and Dick Clark (like Dick Clark was actually aware of that lady's situation) was just stupid. The whole thing was like a giant Starr post, it was made to distract you from the real points. He's a douche, pompous, arrogant and because of that he's also fat.

Wasn't Heston suffering the affects of Alzhiemers at the time as well?

Heston only announced that in August 2002 according to Wiki. The interview must have been a fair time before anyone outside of Hestons camp would have had any suspicions. At the end of the day Heston invited Moore in and Moore asked some questions that Heston was unable to deal with. I don't see the big deal. Moore left without shooting anybody with a gun and maybe Heston felt like an idiot for letting Moore in. Heston was lucid enough, it wasn't like he was in the advanced stages of whatever illness was becoming apparent.

[El Kabong]

How is Bill Maher a hypocrite?

Well on religion alone, Maher is an unabashed atheist and he dislikes anything having to do with religion(especially organized religion) and he doesn't want them pushing their religion on everyone else (that's fair enough and on that point I agree) but at the same time he pushes his atheism on everyone. He also calls out Republican talking heads for stoking partisanship and racism but he does the exact same thing, it's just he's a liberal so it's ok when he does it.

Miles, guns are legal in America which is probably why we have more gun violence and your numbers mean NOTHING because they do not relay how LEGAL gun owners handle their weapons as opposed to just some thug who wants to do a drive by.

Despite what anyone may think, we were going to Iraq 9/11 or no 9/11. Both Bill Clinton AND Al Gore escalated their stance on Iraq in the late 1990's and early 2000's. They may not have decided to overthrow Saddam but there was going to be a military action taken against Iraq no matter what.

As for Capitalism, are there more poor people in America or in China, India, and Brazil? I'd say we're pretty fair off.

[Gandalf]

How is Bill Maher a hypocrite?

Well on religion alone, Maher is an unabashed atheist and he dislikes anything having to do with religion(especially organized religion) and he doesn't want them pushing their religion on everyone else (that's fair enough and on that point I agree) but at the same time he pushes his atheism on everyone. He also calls out Republican talking heads for stoking partisanship and racism but he does the exact same thing, it's just he's a liberal so it's ok when he does it.

Miles, guns are legal in America which is probably why we have more gun violence and your numbers mean NOTHING because they do not relay how LEGAL gun owners handle their weapons as opposed to just some thug who wants to do a drive by.

Despite what anyone may think, we were going to Iraq 9/11 or no 9/11. Both Bill Clinton AND Al Gore escalated their stance on Iraq in the late 1990's and early 2000's. They may not have decided to overthrow Saddam but there was going to be a military action taken against Iraq no matter what.

As for Capitalism, are there more poor people in America or in China, India, and Brazil? I'd say we're pretty fair off.

The numbers do mean something though. The numbers indicate quite clearly that gun crime in America is significantly higher than anywhere else in the world. Just look at the difference between America and Japan where guns are not easily obtained. It's immense. I do agree that those in legal possession of firearms are probably less likely to commit offences, but I don't know the statistics for that.

The war on Iraq we have debated in the past and I think we have the same views we have always had really.

In terms of Capitalism, it seems that quality of life has been stagnating for many years now in the US and is now being hit hard because of years of letting the markets just do what they want. It does need serious reforming. Of course, the quality of life is decent compared with most places, but it is slipping for many people week by week. There is no obvious recovery in sight and national debt is at horrifying levels. It's a topic that has sparked my curiosity in the last few months and I'm following things more than I should. A lot of doom and gloom stuff. I should stop.

[El Kabong]

Miles, that tells about gun crime, it doesn't tell about how many gun oweners there are (it just uses population in general which means felons, violent criminals, mentally unstable, etc), it also doesn't tell about how many of the guns used in crimes were legally owned or not (which is a huge issue)...so you only see the bad things guns do in what you posted, you don't see how responsible the vast majority of LEGAL gun owners are and you don't see where guns are used to stop crime.

[amat]

Yeah I'm actually for gun laws as in making sure we try to keep them in the right hands but I badly want to own a gun, almost to the point where I would want to just ask some people if they know where I can get one I'm sure I could. That would lead to trouble but I live alone in an apartment in a nice area but it's 300,000 thousand people here and I live by 2 schools where there are people scheming there every night. It's kind of nerve racking sometimes I've had a crackhead (literally, a complete fucking crackhead) sneak in my house when I was checking my mail after I got home at like 11 at night and try to rummage my dresser. Other times I've had some complete fcking strangers knock on my door hella late at night probably because they smelled weed at like 2 am. I've probably had 3 nerve racking moments in my time living here where I've really wanted a gun and almost felt like I needed one. It would be better to own one I would never support