Is Nonito Donaire really the 6th best boxer in the world??

[Kev]

Just was looking at the Pound For Pound rankings on The Ring & saw that Donaire is #6

The Ring Pound For Pound Ratings

I mean seriously, he's a good fighter, but he's only got one worthy name on there in Darchinyan & even he isn't that good.

The problem I have with this is however you look at it, there are plenty of guys who should be above him.

If it's on resume, Cotto, Dawson, Williams, Chris John, both Klitschkos & Arthur Abraham all trump him.

If it's on talent Hasegawa, Cotto, Dawson, Williams, Wlad Klitschko, Abraham, Kessler, Calderon, Caballero & Roman Gonzalez are all better.

Can you really have this high because people thought Vic was p4p at one point & he beat him?

I mean he's good, probably Top 20, but no way is he the 6th best fighter in the world.

No, and Paul Williams shouldn't be in the top ten either.

How is Williams not p4p 10?

He's a two weight, three time world champ and has wins over two former p4p top 10 guys in Margarito and Winky (actually Winky was top 5 not too long ago).

How many fighters have done more than him? Dawson should be top 10 too.

[hfahrenheit]

Just was looking at the Pound For Pound rankings on The Ring & saw that Donaire is #6

The Ring Pound For Pound Ratings

I mean seriously, he's a good fighter, but he's only got one worthy name on there in Darchinyan & even he isn't that good.

The problem I have with this is however you look at it, there are plenty of guys who should be above him.

If it's on resume, Cotto, Dawson, Williams, Chris John, both Klitschkos & Arthur Abraham all trump him.

If it's on talent Hasegawa, Cotto, Dawson, Williams, Wlad Klitschko, Abraham, Kessler, Calderon, Caballero & Roman Gonzalez are all better.

Can you really have this high because people thought Vic was p4p at one point & he beat him?

I mean he's good, probably Top 20, but no way is he the 6th best fighter in the world.

No, and Paul Williams shouldn't be in the top ten either.

How is Williams not p4p 10?

He's a two weight, three time world champ and has wins over two former p4p top 10 guys in Margarito and Winky (actually Winky was top 5 not too long ago).

How many fighters have done more than him? Dawson should be top 10 too.

Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...

And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.

And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10 best fighter in the World.

No sense in arguing any of that.

[ElTerribleMorales]

No, and Paul Williams shouldn't be in the top ten either.

How is Williams not p4p 10?

He's a two weight, three time world champ and has wins over two former p4p top 10 guys in Margarito and Winky (actually Winky was top 5 not too long ago).

How many fighters have done more than him? Dawson should be top 10 too.

Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...

And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.

And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10 best fighter in the World.

No sense in arguing any of that.

in Williams' defense he was set to fight Pavlik, but Kelly pussied out, and well now he's fighting Martinez which is still a top opponent and a tough fight, it's a bigger risk than anything Donaire has taken

[hfahrenheit]

How is Williams not p4p 10?

He's a two weight, three time world champ and has wins over two former p4p top 10 guys in Margarito and Winky (actually Winky was top 5 not too long ago).

How many fighters have done more than him? Dawson should be top 10 too.

Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...

And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.

And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10th best fighter in the World.

No sense in arguing any of that.

in Williams' defense he was set to fight Pavlik, but Kelly pussied out, and well now he's fighting Martinez which is still a top opponent and a tough fight, it's a bigger risk than anything Donaire has taken

Just for clarity, I happen to think Williams is a good boxer.

BUT, just because people are ducking you, doesn't mean you deserve a p4p ranking. You still have to go win those fights--despite any circumstance, you cannot be awarded status biased on hyperbole or conjecture.

[ElTerribleMorales]

Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...

And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.

And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10th best fighter in the World.

No sense in arguing any of that.

in Williams' defense he was set to fight Pavlik, but Kelly pussied out, and well now he's fighting Martinez which is still a top opponent and a tough fight, it's a bigger risk than anything Donaire has taken

Just for clarity, I happen to think Williams is a good boxer.

BUT, just because people are ducking you, doesn't mean you deserve a p4p ranking. You still have to go win those fights--despite any circumstance, you cannot be awarded status biased on hyperbole or conjecture.

oh i agree, i'm just saying that Williams is at least making more of an effort than Donaire to go and get the big names, or at least the dangerous fights that make you p4p one of the best in the world, Williams going after Pavlik and now Martinez proves that he's at least making the effort, but i agree that he could easily be replaced on a current p4p list, but you can at least make a case for him being on the list, something you can't really do for Donaire

[Kev]

No, and Paul Williams shouldn't be in the top ten either.

How is Williams not p4p 10?

He's a two weight, three time world champ and has wins over two former p4p top 10 guys in Margarito and Winky (actually Winky was top 5 not too long ago).

How many fighters have done more than him? Dawson should be top 10 too.

Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...

And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.

And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10 best fighter in the World.

No sense in arguing any of that.

Hmm ok then so let's use YOUR logic to assess the rest of the p4p guys.

How many fights has Floyd won in the past 2 years? How many fighters has he fought in his own weight class in that time?

What about B Hop, I think he's 1-1 in that time?

Cotto? He's gone 2-1 with many thinking he should be 1-2.

I guess JM Marquez should be dropped from the list altogether as his last fight he lost every single round right?

Williams is easily one of the most significant fighters in boxing today, a menace from 147-160. He's been trying to get the big fights, Pavlik pulled out now he's going after Martinez, this guy brings the fans what they want and is actually trying to unify divisions.

Compare that with Floyd, two years off, and only fights guys two weight classes below him.

B Hop, one fight ever couple years, no interest in unifying any divisions, just wants handpicked fights for money.

Cotto, hasn't won a significant fight in a couple years.

Caballero, he's done more than Williams, really?

Donaire? Ok I'll give you him, his win over Darchinyan was immense, no doubting his pedigree.


By the way I'm not slating any of the fighters above, I think (Donaire aside) they all deserve p4p status, but Williams has proven himself repeatedly and absolutely deserves to be there.

Let me ask you, how many other current fighters are there who won weight classes in two weight divisions, then moved up to a third and beat one of the best in that division of the best decade?

Of those fighters how many arn't p4p?

[hfahrenheit]

How is Williams not p4p 10?

He's a two weight, three time world champ and has wins over two former p4p top 10 guys in Margarito and Winky (actually Winky was top 5 not too long ago).

How many fighters have done more than him? Dawson should be top 10 too.

Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...

And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.

And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10 best fighter in the World.

No sense in arguing any of that.

Hmm ok then so let's use YOUR logic to assess the rest of the p4p guys.

How many fights has Floyd won in the past 2 years? How many fighters has he fought in his own weight class in that time?

What about B Hop, I think he's 1-1 in that time?

Cotto? He's gone 2-1 with many thinking he should be 1-2.

I guess JM Marquez should be dropped from the list altogether as his last fight he lost every single round right?

Williams is easily one of the most significant fighters in boxing today, a menace from 147-160. He's been trying to get the big fights, Pavlik pulled out now he's going after Martinez, this guy brings the fans what they want and is actually trying to unify divisions.

Compare that with Floyd, two years off, and only fights guys two weight classes below him.

B Hop, one fight ever couple years, no interest in unifying any divisions, just wants handpicked fights for money.

Cotto, hasn't won a significant fight in a couple years.

Caballero, he's done more than Williams, really?

Donaire? Ok I'll give you him, his win over Darchinyan was immense, no doubting his pedigree.


By the way I'm not slating any of the fighters above, I think (Donaire aside) they all deserve p4p status, but Williams has proven himself repeatedly and absolutely deserves to be there.

Let me ask you, how many other current fighters are there who won weight classes in two weight divisions, then moved up to a third and beat one of the best in that division of the best decade?

Of those fighters how many arn't p4p?

Yes, I think the p4p ranking could stand to be more merit based.

And you must be Winky's #1 fan, because you're giving that fight entirely too much emphasis. You're acting as if Winky wasn't a has been coming into that fight, and he was. And, Winky was one of the best 154lbs fighters of the decade--he fought Williams at 160 were he did little more than head butt Jermain Taylor.

Paul Williams does not deserve a p4p ranking based of wins over winky, phillps, knolle, quintana, and margarito. None of those guys were anywhere near the p4p list when he fought them.

Floyd and b-hop have much better resumes. Period. No comparison. And because you can't completely eliminate everything subjective, they deserve to be there because of their accomplishments--certainly not because of who they're currently fighting.

Cotto - the Clottey fight was more of a quality fight than Winky, Phillps, and Knolle.

Yahoo! actually has Williams as the #3 guy (above B-hop and Mosely and scores of others) which is completely fucked.

I don't agree with Nonito or Caballero either, although Caballero is a talent.

Williams is a talented guy who hasn't gotten a chance. I get that.

But I think how we differ is that I don't automatically give Williams a win over someone like Pavlik, just because it looks like Pavlik ducked him...YOU STILL HAVE TO BEAT THEM IN THE RING TO GET CREDIT FOR THE WIN.

It looks like you give him the credit anyways.

Let me ask you, how many other current fighters are there who won weight classes in two weight divisions, then moved up to a third and beat one of the best in that division of the best decade?

Just Manny Pacquiao, just not in that order.

I guess JM Marquez should be dropped from the list altogether as his last fight he lost every single round right?

If he continued to fight at 147, then yes; he should be dropped from the rankings...at 135, he's still one of the p4p best.

Williams is easily one of the most significant fighters in boxing today, a menace from 147-160. He's been trying to get the big fights, Pavlik pulled out now he's going after Martinez, this guy brings the fans what they want and is actually trying to unify divisions.

Could be. Not "is." And God I wish Mosely, Floyd, Pavlik, Abraham, somebody would fight this guy so all the "what if's" would go away.

My only point is that we should wait until after he gets one of these fights (and wins) before we give him p4p status.

[Kev]

Yep, Winky sure was at the top of the boxing World when he fought Williams...

And Margarito, that fight happened two and half years ago... why shouldn't that be include in a current p4p ranking, it's a perfect barometer for how a fighter's doing CURRENTLY.

And Freddie Roach is right too--Amir Khan is the 10 best fighter in the World.

No sense in arguing any of that.

Hmm ok then so let's use YOUR logic to assess the rest of the p4p guys.

How many fights has Floyd won in the past 2 years? How many fighters has he fought in his own weight class in that time?

What about B Hop, I think he's 1-1 in that time?

Cotto? He's gone 2-1 with many thinking he should be 1-2.

I guess JM Marquez should be dropped from the list altogether as his last fight he lost every single round right?

Williams is easily one of the most significant fighters in boxing today, a menace from 147-160. He's been trying to get the big fights, Pavlik pulled out now he's going after Martinez, this guy brings the fans what they want and is actually trying to unify divisions.

Compare that with Floyd, two years off, and only fights guys two weight classes below him.

B Hop, one fight ever couple years, no interest in unifying any divisions, just wants handpicked fights for money.

Cotto, hasn't won a significant fight in a couple years.

Caballero, he's done more than Williams, really?

Donaire? Ok I'll give you him, his win over Darchinyan was immense, no doubting his pedigree.


By the way I'm not slating any of the fighters above, I think (Donaire aside) they all deserve p4p status, but Williams has proven himself repeatedly and absolutely deserves to be there.

Let me ask you, how many other current fighters are there who won weight classes in two weight divisions, then moved up to a third and beat one of the best in that division of the best decade?

Of those fighters how many arn't p4p?

Yes, I think the p4p ranking could stand to be more merit based.

And you must be Winky's #1 fan, because you're giving that fight entirely too much emphasis. You're acting as if Winky wasn't a has been coming into that fight, and he was. And, Winky was one of the best 154lbs fighters of the decade--he fought Williams at 160 were he did little more than head butt Jermain Taylor.

Paul Williams does not deserve a p4p ranking based of wins over winky, phillps, knolle, quintana, and margarito. None of those guys were anywhere near the p4p list when he fought them.

Floyd and b-hop have much better resumes. Period. No comparison. And because you can't completely eliminate everything subjective, they deserve to be there because of their accomplishments--certainly not because of who they're currently fighting.

Cotto - the Clottey fight was more of a quality fight than Winky, Phillps, and Knolle.

Yahoo! actually has Williams as the #3 guy (above B-hop and Mosely and scores of others) which is completely fucked.

I don't agree with Nonito or Caballero either, although Caballero is a talent.

Williams is a talented guy who hasn't gotten a chance. I get that.

But I think how we differ is that I don't automatically give Williams a win over someone like Pavlik, just because it looks like Pavlik ducked him...YOU STILL HAVE TO BEAT THEM IN THE RING TO GET CREDIT FOR THE WIN.

It looks like you give him the credit anyways.

Let me ask you, how many other current fighters are there who won weight classes in two weight divisions, then moved up to a third and beat one of the best in that division of the best decade?

Just Manny Pacquiao, just not in that order.

I guess JM Marquez should be dropped from the list altogether as his last fight he lost every single round right?

If he continued to fight at 147, then yes; he should be dropped from the rankings...at 135, he's still one of the p4p best.

Williams is easily one of the most significant fighters in boxing today, a menace from 147-160. He's been trying to get the big fights, Pavlik pulled out now he's going after Martinez, this guy brings the fans what they want and is actually trying to unify divisions.

Could be. Not "is." And God I wish Mosely, Floyd, Pavlik, Abraham, somebody would fight this guy so all the "what if's" would go away.

My only point is that we should wait until after he gets one of these fights (and wins) before we give him p4p status.

Margarito was a top 10 p4p guy and Williams beat him. He beat Winky better than ANY man has EVER beaten him. Ok so Winky was past it according to you but you can't say that based on his ring performances. He performed much better than Kelly Pavlik did against B Hop, some people thinking that fight was razor close. Williams didn't just beat him, he dominated him.

Guys like Quintana and Phillips may not be impressive to you but they are solid fighters. Do you disagree that Calderon should have been in the top p4p at any time? He beat some guy I've never heard of at 106 lbs who I guarantee wasn't as good as Margarito, then moved up and beat Hugo Cazares to win at light flyweight. Result, straight into the top 10 p4p.

Meanwhile Williams beat Margarito to win a world title at 147, certainly better than the anonymous 106 lb man, then moved up and beat Verno Phillips for a 154 lb belt, certainly appox equal to Cazares then moved up AGAIN and dominated a possible future Hall of Famer, I guess the equivilent of Calderon moving up again and beating Rapheal Marquez at super flyweight or something.

But he's not p4p whereas Calderon is?

You're talking out of your anus

[OumaFan]

Who had Margarito P4P top ten when Williams beat him?

And if you just look at each case I think you'd see that Calderon moving all the way up to 122 would be much more impressive, Williams is more just a freak of nature. Actually now that I read that again that's a horrible comparison.

Not that I disagree with Williams being in the bottom half.

After he beats Martinez he should be, what, number 1?

[Kev]

Who had Margarito P4P top ten when Williams beat him?

And if you just look at each case I think you'd see that Calderon moving all the way up to 122 would be much more impressive, Williams is more just a freak of nature. Actually now that I read that again that's a horrible comparison.

Not that I disagree with Williams being in the bottom half.

After he beats Martinez he should be, what, number 1?

Like Vic Darchinyan Margarito crashed the top 5 p4p when he smoked Miguel Cotto AFTER Williams had alreadt beaten him.

In Darchinyan's case his post Donaire loss successes (wins over Mijares and Arce) were directly credited to Donaire who suddenly found himself propelled into the p4p on the back of Darchinyan's coat tails.

How does this work for the little guys but not for Williams?

Williams has won 3 world titles in two weight classes and has beaten a future hall of famer in another weight class. Donaire has never fought a world class fighter other than Darchinyan and not a single other world champ past or present is on his resume.

Who else in boxing has done so much recently ~(as Wiliams across 3 divisions) and isn't in the p4p?

[Kev]

Who had Margarito P4P top ten when Williams beat him?

And if you just look at each case I think you'd see that Calderon moving all the way up to 122 would be much more impressive, Williams is more just a freak of nature. Actually now that I read that again that's a horrible comparison.

Not that I disagree with Williams being in the bottom half.

After he beats Martinez he should be, what, number 1?

So you discriminate against a fighter's achievements because he is tall? What about Tommy Hearns, does his conquering of many weight classes not mean much either?

Every fighter has strengths and assets and wins fights accordingly.

If Williams can win in 3 weights from 147 to 160 a difference of 13 lbs why is that less impressive than Calderon who has moved up a whopping 3lbs in his career?

Williams weighs around 40 percent more than Calderon yet in terms of rising through the weight classes has gone 400 percent further, 13 lbs compared to 3lb.

He's done more than Calderon for sure, any sane man should be able to see this.