Should Bush and Blair be tried for war crimes?

[Gandalf]

This has nothing to do with a trial, but we're not over their just randomly shooting civilians.





An interesting letter in the Australian Shooter Magazine this week, which
I quote:




"If you consider that there has been an average of 160,000
troops in the Iraq Theater of operations during the past 22 months, and a
total of 2112 deaths, that gives a firearm death rate of 60 per 100,000
soldiers."


"The firearm death rate in Washington, D.C. Is 80.6 per 100,000 for the same period.


That means you are about 25 per cent more likely to be shot and killed in
the US capital, which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the
US, than you are in Iraq "

I would argue that this is more a reflection on the use of firearms being somewhat out of control in the US. How about the numbers of Iraqi civilans killed for every one US soldier? We have pretty much everyone except Lyle agreeing that the Iraq war was illegitimate. Not a healthy reflection on the US no matter how you want to try and spin things.

[El Kabong]

I would argue that this is more a reflection on the use of firearms being somewhat out of control in the US. How about the numbers of Iraqi civilans killed for every one US soldier? We have pretty much everyone except Lyle agreeing that the Iraq war was illegitimate. Not a healthy reflection on the US no matter how you want to try and spin things.

#1 Firearms are not out of control in the US, FACT

#2 Iraq was going to get screwed with one way or another and the only thing I disagree with is the strategy, we fought with one hand tied behind our backs and we have continued to do so.

Why don't you civilian loving assholes check out what happened to civilians in World War I, World War II, Korea, and Vietnam and if Iraq or Afghanistan even comes CLOSE to any one of those then I'll concede my view and declare you the winner of this debate

[Howlin Mad Missy]

Lyle, it's not about winning a debate. People are dying.

[El Kabong]

Lyle, it's not about winning a debate. People are dying.

People die every day, if it's about stopping people from dying then good luck

WTF with you guys and your view of guns and gun laws in the US?!?! They don't hand them out at the fair, you do have to pass background checks of course that's the law and laws CAN be broken but then we are talking about ILLEGAL gun ownership and not LEGAL gun ownership and if you can make the case that LEGAL gun ownership is bad then fine, but legal gun owners are responsible people. "OOooooh we don't have guns in the UK/Quebec/South Korea etc and it's WONDERFUL there is NO violence ever"

[Howlin Mad Missy]

Lyle, it's not about winning a debate. People are dying.

People die every day, if it's about stopping people from dying then good luck

WTF with you guys and your view of guns and gun laws in the US?!?! They don't hand them out at the fair, you do have to pass background checks of course that's the law and laws CAN be broken but then we are talking about ILLEGAL gun ownership and not LEGAL gun ownership and if you can make the case that LEGAL gun ownership is bad then fine, but legal gun owners are responsible people. "OOooooh we don't have guns in the UK/Quebec/South Korea etc and it's WONDERFUL there is NO violence ever"

So why did you invade Afghanistan and Iraq since you weren't there to help the natives?

[Nameless]

Lyle, it's not about winning a debate. People are dying.

People die every day, if it's about stopping people from dying then good luck

WTF with you guys and your view of guns and gun laws in the US?!?! They don't hand them out at the fair, you do have to pass background checks of course that's the law and laws CAN be broken but then we are talking about ILLEGAL gun ownership and not LEGAL gun ownership and if you can make the case that LEGAL gun ownership is bad then fine, but legal gun owners are responsible people. "OOooooh we don't have guns in the UK/Quebec/South Korea etc and it's WONDERFUL there is NO violence ever"

IN Virginia, it takes 16 years old to buy legally a gun.
AS for the fairs, you'Re wrong. You can buy whatever you want (or almost) without problems. Gun show - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia or VPC - Gun Shows in America - Section Four or ATF agents discuss Eastern Washington's illegal gun trade | Northwest News - The News Tribune | Seattle-Tacoma News, Weather, Sports, Jobs, Homes and Cars | South Puget Sound's Destination
ONe of my old friend (60 years old now) got out of one of these shows in Arizona with an automatic ruger machine gun. this is absolutely out of control and no wonder why the USA are the steadiest democracy with the highest murder via guns (around 14 000 if I am correct), do you think it's normal? I can understand that you're a bit conservative and stuff Lyle, I am all down with it, however, it is quite hard to argue agaisnt the gun problems in your country.

[VictorCharlie]

Gun ownership is a constitutional right in the U.S. but more than that it is a tradition that goes back to the inception of our nation. The ability for the common citizen to bear arms is the ultimate guard against tyranny. Studies comparing nations with strict gun laws to the U.S. have been inconcluse at best here is one study that would suggest the opposite.

National crime rates compared

You notice that there is only two nations with lower violent crime rates than the US. I think many of you have a completely distorted view of gun ownership in the US due to its portrayal by a biased media. The media never reports anything on the 80 million law abiding gun owners in this country but 20/20 is perfectly happy to run an erroneous show about concealed carry or show every violent crime across the nation that involves guns. I never see a study showing the amount of crime prevented by gun owners and gun ownership yet the media gladly includes suicides that use firearms in the stats of violent crime.

Gun ownership in the U.S. is as far gone an issue as abortion. It aint changing. It just a topic that politicians like to get people on both sides of the fence riled up about. The day the 2nd Amendment ceases to allow a law abiding U.S. Citizens to own and carry fire arms is the day that democracy dies in this country. This is all I'm going to say on this issue. Most of my thoughts can be found in this thread

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...b-my-guns.html

[El Kabong]

AMEN, Van as usual you are absolutely correct.

But we can't argue with these people, they are from Left of Center states and are used to the Government doing their thinking for them which is why they turned their guns in voluntarily (if they ever had any to begin with). Why not just trade in your guns for some handcuffs?? If someone breaks in your house what do you do? If they are a criminal odds are they might not be opposed to bringing a gun with them on their robberies....I suppose you just wait until the Police get there....do they carry guns or do you guys just operate on the honor system??

Do you people even know how much you have to do to LEGALLY own a fully automatic weapon We're talking MASSIVE background check AND the ATF comes to your house IN PERSON to inventory what you have and how much you have....you get audited for your weapons but I suppose that doesn't matter because in fantasy land (aka the Developed Western World outside the US) inanimate object like handguns can be evil just by themselves.

[Gandalf]

Gun ownership is a constitutional right in the U.S. but more than that it is a tradition that goes back to the inception of our nation. The ability for the common citizen to bear arms is the ultimate guard against tyranny. Studies comparing nations with strict gun laws to the U.S. have been inconcluse at best here is one study that would suggest the opposite.

National crime rates compared

You notice that there is only two nations with lower violent crime rates than the US. I think many of you have a completely distorted view of gun ownership in the US due to its portrayal by a biased media. The media never reports anything on the 80 million law abiding gun owners in this country but 20/20 is perfectly happy to run an erroneous show about concealed carry or show every violent crime across the nation that involves guns. I never see a study showing the amount of crime prevented by gun owners and gun ownership yet the media gladly includes suicides that use firearms in the stats of violent crime.

Gun ownership in the U.S. is as far gone an issue as abortion. It aint changing. It just a topic that politicians like to get people on both sides of the fence riled up about. The day the 2nd Amendment ceases to allow a law abiding U.S. Citizens to own and carry fire arms is the day that democracy dies in this country. This is all I'm going to say on this issue. Most of my thoughts can be found in this thread

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...b-my-guns.html

You talk about guns being a defence against tyranny, but the way I see it is that America has been looted and continues to be looted. The guns you all have haven't been much of a defence against that.

Democracy is pretty much gone as it is. You have two parties representing the same interests; namely big business and wall street. The elections are run on the agenda and topics that the parties themselves choose. Things that really matter to the vast bulk of the elctorate stay swept under the rug and are seldom discussed. The media, which is typically owned by large corporation is in collusion with the status quo. Real wages haven't gone up in nearly 40 years and standards of living have fallen, those are the kinds of things that should be being discussed openly and fairly. But it's no longer about government run by and for the people. Elections now are merely symobolic.

[Nameless]

I would argue that this is more a reflection on the use of firearms being somewhat out of control in the US. How about the numbers of Iraqi civilans killed for every one US soldier? We have pretty much everyone except Lyle agreeing that the Iraq war was illegitimate. Not a healthy reflection on the US no matter how you want to try and spin things.

#1 Firearms are not out of control in the US, FACT

#2 Iraq was going to get screwed with one way or another and the only thing I disagree with is the strategy, we fought with one hand tied behind our backs and we have continued to do so.

Why don't you civilian loving assholes check out what happened to civilians in World War I, World War II, Korea, and Vietnam and if Iraq or Afghanistan even comes CLOSE to any one of those then I'll concede my view and declare you the winner of this debate

You're right, not so long ago, anybody could buy as much ammo as he wanted at the K-Mart. Anybody can buy guns at a gun fair without any questions asked and with limited age ratio. Do you really think it is normal?

As for IRaq and Vietnam/Corea and the second world war, these are very different circumstances. The 2 first WW were legits, no need to explain why. They haven't been created on some stupid lies and people did pay the price for (those who kind of started it). Viet-Nam just like Iraq was pure bullshit and those responsible for it should be trialed the same damn way.

[Gandalf]

I would argue that this is more a reflection on the use of firearms being somewhat out of control in the US. How about the numbers of Iraqi civilans killed for every one US soldier? We have pretty much everyone except Lyle agreeing that the Iraq war was illegitimate. Not a healthy reflection on the US no matter how you want to try and spin things.

#1 Firearms are not out of control in the US, FACT

#2 Iraq was going to get screwed with one way or another and the only thing I disagree with is the strategy, we fought with one hand tied behind our backs and we have continued to do so.

Why don't you civilian loving assholes check out what happened to civilians in World War I, World War II, Korea, and Vietnam and if Iraq or Afghanistan even comes CLOSE to any one of those then I'll concede my view and declare you the winner of this debate

1. Gun crimes are out of control, the US has far too many guns and people dying because of guns. I live in a city where there are no guns. NOBODY gets shot here. You don't need guns. I find most of the arguments supporting the case for firearms to be a rather sad reflection on a disintegrated US society than anything else.

2. I don't understand this argument at all. You offer no attempt to justify the illegal invasion.

You have invaded a country for no legitimate reason besides geo-political influence and access to oil. People have every right to be agrieved that you have invaded for that and then gone on to wipe out upwards of half a million people. You had no right to be there in the first place. Like I have said before, watch out as it all comes back to bite you. America is LESS safe because of these conquests. You now have the intellectuals who are frowning upon American policy and you also have a lot more people who have lost loved ones who see America as the big bad devil. The threat of terrorist attacks will have been increased by this.