Should Bush and Blair be tried for war crimes?

[Nameless]

Lyle, it's not about winning a debate. People are dying.

People die every day, if it's about stopping people from dying then good luck

WTF with you guys and your view of guns and gun laws in the US?!?! They don't hand them out at the fair, you do have to pass background checks of course that's the law and laws CAN be broken but then we are talking about ILLEGAL gun ownership and not LEGAL gun ownership and if you can make the case that LEGAL gun ownership is bad then fine, but legal gun owners are responsible people. "OOooooh we don't have guns in the UK/Quebec/South Korea etc and it's WONDERFUL there is NO violence ever"

IN Virginia, it takes 16 years old to buy legally a gun.
AS for the fairs, you'Re wrong. You can buy whatever you want (or almost) without problems. Gun show - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia or VPC - Gun Shows in America - Section Four or ATF agents discuss Eastern Washington's illegal gun trade | Northwest News - The News Tribune | Seattle-Tacoma News, Weather, Sports, Jobs, Homes and Cars | South Puget Sound's Destination
ONe of my old friend (60 years old now) got out of one of these shows in Arizona with an automatic ruger machine gun. this is absolutely out of control and no wonder why the USA are the steadiest democracy with the highest murder via guns (around 14 000 if I am correct), do you think it's normal? I can understand that you're a bit conservative and stuff Lyle, I am all down with it, however, it is quite hard to argue agaisnt the gun problems in your country.

[VictorCharlie]

Gun ownership is a constitutional right in the U.S. but more than that it is a tradition that goes back to the inception of our nation. The ability for the common citizen to bear arms is the ultimate guard against tyranny. Studies comparing nations with strict gun laws to the U.S. have been inconcluse at best here is one study that would suggest the opposite.

National crime rates compared

You notice that there is only two nations with lower violent crime rates than the US. I think many of you have a completely distorted view of gun ownership in the US due to its portrayal by a biased media. The media never reports anything on the 80 million law abiding gun owners in this country but 20/20 is perfectly happy to run an erroneous show about concealed carry or show every violent crime across the nation that involves guns. I never see a study showing the amount of crime prevented by gun owners and gun ownership yet the media gladly includes suicides that use firearms in the stats of violent crime.

Gun ownership in the U.S. is as far gone an issue as abortion. It aint changing. It just a topic that politicians like to get people on both sides of the fence riled up about. The day the 2nd Amendment ceases to allow a law abiding U.S. Citizens to own and carry fire arms is the day that democracy dies in this country. This is all I'm going to say on this issue. Most of my thoughts can be found in this thread

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...b-my-guns.html

[El Kabong]

AMEN, Van as usual you are absolutely correct.

But we can't argue with these people, they are from Left of Center states and are used to the Government doing their thinking for them which is why they turned their guns in voluntarily (if they ever had any to begin with). Why not just trade in your guns for some handcuffs?? If someone breaks in your house what do you do? If they are a criminal odds are they might not be opposed to bringing a gun with them on their robberies....I suppose you just wait until the Police get there....do they carry guns or do you guys just operate on the honor system??

Do you people even know how much you have to do to LEGALLY own a fully automatic weapon We're talking MASSIVE background check AND the ATF comes to your house IN PERSON to inventory what you have and how much you have....you get audited for your weapons but I suppose that doesn't matter because in fantasy land (aka the Developed Western World outside the US) inanimate object like handguns can be evil just by themselves.

[Gandalf]

Gun ownership is a constitutional right in the U.S. but more than that it is a tradition that goes back to the inception of our nation. The ability for the common citizen to bear arms is the ultimate guard against tyranny. Studies comparing nations with strict gun laws to the U.S. have been inconcluse at best here is one study that would suggest the opposite.

National crime rates compared

You notice that there is only two nations with lower violent crime rates than the US. I think many of you have a completely distorted view of gun ownership in the US due to its portrayal by a biased media. The media never reports anything on the 80 million law abiding gun owners in this country but 20/20 is perfectly happy to run an erroneous show about concealed carry or show every violent crime across the nation that involves guns. I never see a study showing the amount of crime prevented by gun owners and gun ownership yet the media gladly includes suicides that use firearms in the stats of violent crime.

Gun ownership in the U.S. is as far gone an issue as abortion. It aint changing. It just a topic that politicians like to get people on both sides of the fence riled up about. The day the 2nd Amendment ceases to allow a law abiding U.S. Citizens to own and carry fire arms is the day that democracy dies in this country. This is all I'm going to say on this issue. Most of my thoughts can be found in this thread

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...b-my-guns.html

You talk about guns being a defence against tyranny, but the way I see it is that America has been looted and continues to be looted. The guns you all have haven't been much of a defence against that.

Democracy is pretty much gone as it is. You have two parties representing the same interests; namely big business and wall street. The elections are run on the agenda and topics that the parties themselves choose. Things that really matter to the vast bulk of the elctorate stay swept under the rug and are seldom discussed. The media, which is typically owned by large corporation is in collusion with the status quo. Real wages haven't gone up in nearly 40 years and standards of living have fallen, those are the kinds of things that should be being discussed openly and fairly. But it's no longer about government run by and for the people. Elections now are merely symobolic.

[VictorCharlie]

Well hell yeah Miles....I'll load my M14 and you can borrow my Sig...lets go start a fucking revolution!!

[Gandalf]

Well hell yeah Miles....I'll load my M14 and you can borrow my Sig...lets go start a fucking revolution!!

Indeed. I would love it if 50 million Americans joined forces and marched on Wall Street with their guns in tow. I might even alter my anti-gun policy for such an occasion. A revolution is sorely needed right now. The forecasts are bleak and 2010 is going to be a very hard year for many. Jobs will continue to be lost and then when the temporary recovery begins to lull, yet more stimulus money will be thrown back into the void. This carry on needs to stop and the 'too big to fails' need to die. They are vampires sucking on the soul of America.

[Gandalf]

My beef is not only an American one, but a British one too. I was reading an article in some newspaper calculating that the cost of the bail outs had cost each family in the UK about 40,000 pounds. Now that is just fucking criminal! What typical family has that kind of money? And yet that's the cost of taxes just handed over to support these screwed up and downright irresponsible corporations. And they have the cheek to still want their christmas bonuses? They are despicable people with no morals. The whole thing makes me fume.

[Kirkland Laing]

Well hell yeah Miles....I'll load my M14 and you can borrow my Sig...lets go start a fucking revolution!!

Indeed. I would love it if 50 million Americans joined forces and marched on Wall Street with their guns in tow. I might even alter my anti-gun policy for such an occasion. A revolution is sorely needed right now. The forecasts are bleak and 2010 is going to be a very hard year for many. Jobs will continue to be lost and then when the temporary recovery begins to lull, yet more stimulus money will be thrown back into the void. This carry on needs to stop and the 'too big to fails' need to die. They are vampires sucking on the soul of America.

The economy will eventually recover although it may go into reverse for a while again and either way it won't seem like recovery unemployment-wise for a long time. Once they get a recovery going they can then get to work on inflating the bubble that they've just created with government money, the one that's currently propping the markets and the banking system up. When that one goes pop and people discover that the government just let the banks run riot after the 2008 meltdown while only pretending to re-regulate them and that the banks are now automatically backstopped by the government for unlimited taxpayer dough it'll be pitchfork time, probably.

[El Kabong]

...oh the economy will be in reverse for quite some time because Obama is in WELL over his head (as was Bush before him but at least he had experience)

[Gandalf]

Well hell yeah Miles....I'll load my M14 and you can borrow my Sig...lets go start a fucking revolution!!

Indeed. I would love it if 50 million Americans joined forces and marched on Wall Street with their guns in tow. I might even alter my anti-gun policy for such an occasion. A revolution is sorely needed right now. The forecasts are bleak and 2010 is going to be a very hard year for many. Jobs will continue to be lost and then when the temporary recovery begins to lull, yet more stimulus money will be thrown back into the void. This carry on needs to stop and the 'too big to fails' need to die. They are vampires sucking on the soul of America.

The economy will eventually recover although it may go into reverse for a while again and either way it won't seem like recovery unemployment-wise for a long time. Once they get a recovery going they can then get to work on inflating the bubble that they've just created with government money, the one that's currently propping the markets and the banking system up. When that one goes pop and people discover that the government just let the banks run riot after the 2008 meltdown while only pretending to re-regulate them and that the banks are now automatically backstopped by the government for unlimited taxpayer dough it'll be pitchfork time, probably.

You would think it would get to a point where the people just don't take it anymore. I would have thought that point might have been reached with many cities already having upwards of 20% unemployment, but we will just have to wait until it degenerates some more. It takes an awful lot of corruption and bullshit to get even the smallest reaction from people these days. And then of course you have the reactionaries like Lyle. I live in a country where hundreds of thousands protested against beef imports (of all the silly things), and yet the Americans can't even organise themselves against government and big business who are openly looting the populace. It's bizarre.