Can anyone recommend a good biography of Vladimir Lenin?

[El Kabong]

what's Lyles excuse?

For what? Arguing with people who are wrong or enjoying freedom, liberty, and a better socioeconomic status than all of the average people living in communist countries?

Why does everyone being LOWERED to the same level sound so good to some people

[CFH]

what's Lyles excuse?

For what? Arguing with people who are wrong or enjoying freedom, liberty, and a better socioeconomic status than all of the average people living in communist countries?

Why does everyone being LOWERED to the same level sound so good to some people

I don't mean to derail this fine thread, but in my personal construction of socialism its about everyone having something, not about everyone having the same standard. I'm all for competition and wealth etc., but I'm also for raising the quality of life for those in society who have the least. That's all I'll say on the subject because I don't want to spark a debate here.

[Gandalf]

what's Lyles excuse?

For what? Arguing with people who are wrong or enjoying freedom, liberty, and a better socioeconomic status than all of the average people living in communist countries?

Why does everyone being LOWERED to the same level sound so good to some people

I don't mean to derail this fine thread, but in my personal construction of socialism its about everyone having something, not about everyone having the same standard. I'm all for competition and wealth etc., but I'm also for raising the quality of life for those in society who have the least. That's all I'll say on the subject because I don't want to spark a debate here.

You are playing with fire saying things like that.

[El Kabong]

I don't mean to derail this fine thread, but in my personal construction of socialism its about everyone having something, not about everyone having the same standard. I'm all for competition and wealth etc., but I'm also for raising the quality of life for those in society who have the least. That's all I'll say on the subject because I don't want to spark a debate here.

What does it teach the poor people when the "something" they have was just aquired by the government from someone who earned it and then just handed over to them and it's not due to anything the poor people have done? Kind of a hollow victory huh? Government should not be in the business of charity on an everyday basis...I can understand if natural disasters/wars/etc happen but just to give ever single day to people who don't work and don't try hard....it just enables their behavior.

There is no motivating factor to work in a socialist society or a welfare state, which is why most socialist leaders have to massacre people to keep the others "motivated".

[CFH]

I don't mean to derail this fine thread, but in my personal construction of socialism its about everyone having something, not about everyone having the same standard. I'm all for competition and wealth etc., but I'm also for raising the quality of life for those in society who have the least. That's all I'll say on the subject because I don't want to spark a debate here.

What does it teach the poor people when the "something" they have was just aquired by the government from someone who earned it and then just handed over to them and it's not due to anything the poor people have done? Kind of a hollow victory huh? Government should not be in the business of charity on an everyday basis...I can understand if natural disasters/wars/etc happen but just to give ever single day to people who don't work and don't try hard....it just enables their behavior.

There is no motivating factor to work in a socialist society or a welfare state, which is why most socialist leaders have to massacre people to keep the others "motivated".

I really don't feel like engaging in a 5-page discussion in which nothing is resolved, so I will just say that I literally agree with none of what you said.

[El Kabong]

I really don't feel like engaging in a 5-page discussion in which nothing is resolved, so I will just say that I literally agree with none of what you said.

OK, so which Socialist leader did NOT massacre large groups of people? Lenin's Red Revolution was not without loss of a great number of lives and for what? It's not as if the Russians ended up much better than they were.

Why Lenin why not focus on Mao or Stalin? Don't those guys tickle your fancy CFH? Focusing on Lenin is as pointless as focusing on Che Guavera or Leon Trotsky

[CFH]

I really don't feel like engaging in a 5-page discussion in which nothing is resolved, so I will just say that I literally agree with none of what you said.

OK, so which Socialist leader did NOT massacre large groups of people? Lenin's Red Revolution was not without loss of a great number of lives and for what? It's not as if the Russians ended up much better than they were.

Why Lenin why not focus on Mao or Stalin? Don't those guys tickle your fancy CFH? Focusing on Lenin is as pointless as focusing on Che Guavera or Leon Trotsky

I'm not going to address the first part of your post for the reasons I have already mentioned, but again I do not necessarily agree with your position. First, the is a huge difference between democratic socialism, socialism, and communism. Furthermore, many so-called "communist" leaders are nothing more than dictators who use their ostensible ideologies to justify their positions. I guess I did end up briefly addressing that point, but whatever.

As for the second part, why Lenin? Because I find him fascinating (in particular his perspectives on colonialism) and I want to learn more about him. Mao has never really interested me and I already know a lot more about Stalin than I do about Lenin. I don't think focusing on any historical figure is pointless (at least not from a historians perspective), I don't understand why you would think that was the case. I find Lenin as interesting as I do someone like Nixon, but it doesn't necessarily mean I relate to either one of them (though I do think, if not for the Vietnam War, that Nixon could have been an extremely good President, but I digress). Lenin, whether you like it or not and regardless of whether you agree with him, had a massive impact on the course of history in the 20th century, why wouldn't someone interested in history want to study him?

[El Kabong]

Damn you, you good natured Canadian! You passed up my baiting you.


I understand you finding historical figures and events interesting, it's more the political views I don't understand, but that's a different topic for a different day.

[Cortez The Killer]

what's Lyles excuse?

For what? Arguing with people who are wrong or enjoying freedom, liberty, and a better socioeconomic status than all of the average people living in communist countries?

Why does everyone being LOWERED to the same level sound so good to some people

I don't mean to derail this fine thread, but in my personal construction of socialism its about everyone having something, not about everyone having the same standard. I'm all for competition and wealth etc., but I'm also for raising the quality of life for those in society who have the least. That's all I'll say on the subject because I don't want to spark a debate here.

Optimistic much

Trust me, there are enough people who take advantage of the system in place in America already. There are plenty of people, able bodied, lazy adults, who get by without having ever done a day's work in their life.

They take advantage of the system, get multiple welfare checks a month, etc...all of which people who are working have to pay for. The richest people in America already support the country with the taxes they pay. Granted, it still gets a bit gluttonous near the top, but the rich are always going to remain rich because the more you raise their taxes the more ways they will find to divert money so they wont have to pay them.

Communism is a "noble" ideology but has zero real world application unless run by a dictator or totalitarian government, which will always end up in extreme corruption and a high level of atrocities.

No system is perfect, but America's faux-democracy is pretty close to the top any way you look at it.

[CFH]

For what? Arguing with people who are wrong or enjoying freedom, liberty, and a better socioeconomic status than all of the average people living in communist countries?

Why does everyone being LOWERED to the same level sound so good to some people

I don't mean to derail this fine thread, but in my personal construction of socialism its about everyone having something, not about everyone having the same standard. I'm all for competition and wealth etc., but I'm also for raising the quality of life for those in society who have the least. That's all I'll say on the subject because I don't want to spark a debate here.

Optimistic much

Trust me, there are enough people who take advantage of the system in place in America already. There are plenty of people, able bodied, lazy adults, who get by without having ever done a day's work in their life.

They take advantage of the system, get multiple welfare checks a month, etc...all of which people who are working have to pay for. The richest people in America already support the country with the taxes they pay. Granted, it still gets a bit gluttonous near the top, but the rich are always going to remain rich because the more you raise their taxes the more ways they will find to divert money so they wont have to pay them.

Communism is a "noble" ideology but has zero real world application unless run by a dictator or totalitarian government, which will always end up in extreme corruption and a high level of atrocities.

No system is perfect, but America's faux-democracy is pretty close to the top any way you look at it.

I'll say the same thing to you that I said to Lyle. I respect your opinion but I strongly disagree with what you wrote. However, I have no wish to engage in a protracted argument on here. Not because I do not feel strongly about my beliefs or because I cannot intelligently articulate them, but because I find these types of argument on here to be frustrating and redundant.

I would also like to state that I am not, nor have I ever been, a communist and I do not believe in the practicality of the communist ideology. My political beliefs, though they are diverse, generally speaking are those of a social democrat and I feel this is an easily defensible ideology which, in some instances, has been proven extremely beneficial. I doubt you have any familiarity with the Canadian political system, but to put them in the local (Canadian) political context, I most frequently vote for the NDP. I hope that contextualized things.

[Cortez The Killer]

I don't mean to derail this fine thread, but in my personal construction of socialism its about everyone having something, not about everyone having the same standard. I'm all for competition and wealth etc., but I'm also for raising the quality of life for those in society who have the least. That's all I'll say on the subject because I don't want to spark a debate here.

Optimistic much

Trust me, there are enough people who take advantage of the system in place in America already. There are plenty of people, able bodied, lazy adults, who get by without having ever done a day's work in their life.

They take advantage of the system, get multiple welfare checks a month, etc...all of which people who are working have to pay for. The richest people in America already support the country with the taxes they pay. Granted, it still gets a bit gluttonous near the top, but the rich are always going to remain rich because the more you raise their taxes the more ways they will find to divert money so they wont have to pay them.

Communism is a "noble" ideology but has zero real world application unless run by a dictator or totalitarian government, which will always end up in extreme corruption and a high level of atrocities.

No system is perfect, but America's faux-democracy is pretty close to the top any way you look at it.

I'll say the same thing to you that I said to Lyle. I respect your opinion but I strongly disagree with what you wrote. However, I have no wish to engage in a protracted argument on here. Not because I do not feel strongly about my beliefs or because I cannot intelligently articulate them, but because I find these types of argument on here to be frustrating and redundant.

I would also like to state that I am not, nor have I ever been, a communist and I do not believe in the practicality of the communist ideology. My political beliefs, though they are diverse, generally speaking are those of a social democrat and I feel this is an easily defensible ideology which, in some instances, has been proven extremely beneficial. I doubt you have any familiarity with the Canadian political system, but to put them in the local (Canadian) political context, I most frequently vote for the NDP. I hope that contextualized things.

Point taken. And no, I have zero familiarity with Canadian politics.

Anyways, I think politics are a headache to discuss/think about anyways. In the end it all comes down to human nature, which makes any system fallible.

All i know is that at the end of the day I don't like seeing 20 percent of my paycheck go to taxes....and 19 of that 20 percent is going to be squandered.

When it comes to politics im neither left nor right.. just a realist and a cynic