Bob n Weave -- Bend at the hips or knees?

[HerbM]

True as thomas tabin says dempsey could punch pretty hard the way he did it, but that doesnt mean that he couldnt have punched even harder, not everyone is a dempsey and not everyone could throw punches like him, but what really makes you think is how hard could these fighters have hit had they have used propper biomechanics.

This brings me back to my question about "is Dempsey right" (in his book) -- and it applies to any of the other older authors for that matter.

Most of the knowledgeable folks here seemed to agree that Dempsey got almost all of it right, so I am very interested when anyone can demonstrate -- or even make a plausible case -- for something he wrote being incorrect. (As opposed to something he did in the ring once, or even habitually -- everyone has bad habits or makes mistakes.)

Dempsey definitely believe that HIS WAY of PUNCHING was MUCH stronger.

Is it?

Do we have evidence against that (or even for it)?

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HerbM

PS: My boxing coach disapproves of the "falling step punch" which powers Dempsey's "left jolt" replacement for a "left jab" (which can also be used for the straight right but it's more critical on the lead hand).

I must practice this ONLY when he isn't around or I do a LOT OF PUSH-UPS to correct my mistake.

I also try to practice it so subtly that no one can tell what I am doing but yet I still get the weight transfer into the punch.

[WayneFlint]

Im not saying what he did was wrong because he won fights so he must have been doing somthing right, what im saying is he could have hit harder in my opinion given the use of good posture, dempsey was a gifted puncher and i think someone less gifted than himself would struggle to pull off the kind of shots he does while still producing powerful punches, some people can hit hard however they hit but for the rest of us we have to rely on propper bio mechanics to deal damaging shots.

[HerbM]

Im not saying what he did was wrong because he won fights so he must have been doing somthing right, what im saying is he could have hit harder in my opinion given the use of good posture, dempsey was a gifted puncher and i think someone less gifted than himself would struggle to pull off the kind of shots he does while still producing powerful punches, some people can hit hard however they hit but for the rest of us we have to rely on propper bio mechanics to deal damaging shots.

And I am not arguing with you -- Dempsey however says the opposite in his book and goes into some detail about why he is correct.

I was hoping to get specifics if you (or anyone) disagreed with him.

Remember, there is a difference between "Dempsey the Boxer" and "Dempsey the Boxing Coach". The latter spent quite some time getting his detailing in his book what he thought was correct technique and why he thought it worked.

What specifically would you change in Dempsey's description of a power jab? (His "left jolt".)

[Scrap]

Herb, its a balancing act that goes something like this. Your inner ear mechanism for Balance should be the same distance from your big toe either way, left or right. Thats the biomechanics for balance,and engagement of the nervous system to work propperly with gravity. Its taken the body Millions of years to adapt. What Dempsey says wont change it.

[Andre]

True, to keep yourself in the safest and best power generating zone it is best to be on balance and in control first and foremost.

Humans are also imperfect in alot of what they do. Off balance things can sometimes work for or against someone depending on whats going on at that point in time. I think you can get away with ducking low and going off balance if you are popping out to the side where you are heading into a safe zone for a second and because they have to turn fully to find you, it can give you the power from way out of left field beyond the point of balance that you can catch them with as they look for you they meet the head on as you come all the way back through the balance point .

I know its a mistake on both parts when talking text book; but its interesting how at times you see two inadvertant mistakes ends up removing the one who seeks the avoider who has gone out into left field by some strange means then gets caught blindsided.

It takes a very controlled and experienced fighter not to turn to seek but to know to hold his own ground and give himself space and time when that happens. MAb's control over Naz comes to mind.

[WayneFlint]

I wasnt arguing either m8 maybe it sounded that way because of how i wrote it? sry if i sounded a bit harsh, The left jolt, i can definently remember the word from reading his book, if i remember correctly his 'left jolt' was basically dropping into a big step with a jab on the end, if so then there are 2 main reasons i know of not to do this as i have a problem doing this myself, first problem being if your opponent moves backwards it is easy to dissolve the power or completely move out of range of the shot, and 2 for risk of being countered, a good fighter will see you doing this and get you to reach for him then counter you knowing you will be slow to evade any on coming punches. however i may be wrong ive read a lot of boxing manuals in the past year and may have the left joltconfused with somthing else.

[HerbM]

I wasnt arguing either m8 maybe it sounded that way because of how i wrote it? sry if i sounded a bit harsh, The left jolt, i can definently remember the word from reading his book, if i remember correctly his 'left jolt' was basically dropping into a big step with a jab on the end, if so then there are 2 main reasons i know of not to do this as i have a problem doing this myself, first problem being if your opponent moves backwards it is easy to dissolve the power or completely move out of range of the shot, and 2 for risk of being countered, a good fighter will see you doing this and get you to reach for him then counter you knowing you will be slow to evade any on coming punches. however i may be wrong ive read a lot of boxing manuals in the past year and may have the left joltconfused with somthing else.

It did NOT sound like *YOU* were arguing; I used that word to make sure that was not *MY* intention, but rather to further develop these ideas with you and with everyone who has knowledge and interest.

I was mildly concern that my request for specifics and facts we can discuss would be seen as argumentative.


When I first read Dempsey, I thought perhaps that a) the drop step might be criticized as you do here and/or b) it might actually be bad for those reasons.

None of the more experienced boxers or trainers who have so far answered my request on this subject (in another thread about the "perfecting the jab") have suggested this, nor has my actual experience.

Dempsey warns it will take a bit of practice to master the step, that it will look awkward at first, and that others will criticize it.

Then he goes on to assert that once the step is mastered it can be used with VERY LITTLE movement -- the key is to just drop the weight into the punch, not actually how far you move to do that (except that a longer drop gives gravity more time to accelerate your body and fist.)

I actually ADD the drop at the END of the jolt -- my thinking and experience here is that I can jab for range finding, distraction, or other purposes without the drop and ONLY when I know the punch will land do I add the drop -- so this happens right before or at contact.

The other reason for loading the drop at the end is that I want to punch to FINISH moving faster, not start that way.

Dropping to initiate would imply always committing to the drop AND the force might be dissipated long before contact is made.

If the punch were to miss, then my foot is ready to hit the ground (it never is more than a tiny bit above the floor.)

Ideally, I want to accelerate (using all my small movement methods and muscles) as close to contact as possible.

I think this is true for any hip twist or shoulder whirl as well. Getting these muscles "into the hit" is better than using them to start the movement. (These are typically short range moves compared with extending the arm.)

But by now I have led us off topic in this thread....


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HerbM